Breeding of Enhanced Animals by Druids (BEAD)

[Krystoff]

I think the point some people are trying to make is that this sort of thing is fundamentally unnatural, and so abhorrent to druids.

I don't see how it could be. At least the part about awakened animals, I'm not so sure about LOVING your pet. If they did find it abhorrent then there would be no awakened animals. Every druid out there would kill it as soon as it became awakened. Remember awakened animals can still breed (At least nothing in the rules that I know of states they can't). So if two awakened animals breed then there will bound to be a new race born. And since breeding is a natural act then I would think the druids would let them be.

However, if you don't want the super breeding in your world, then put in a limitation to the awakened spell. Any awakened animal becomes sterile. You can also put this into the Wildshape ability to make sure no one tries to do it that route as well.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I had a long post arguing against this idea, because I find it so contrary to my own ideas of the game. However, I'll cut all that out and just post the first part, which really says it all for me.

This entire discussion is a matter of Rule 0. The rules do not come anywhere near (thank you, Skip, Monte, and Bruce,) this kind of speculation. They don't disallow it, (as Krystoff points out,) but neither do they allow for it. And omission is not the same as approval.

[Edit]
For those of you familiar with anime, I'm reminded of something I read in a magazine once. In the anime Ranma 1/2 there is a boy (Ranma) who, when doused with cold water, turns into a girl. Hot water turns him back again. In an interview with the creator of the anime, Rumiko Takahashi, a fan-interviewer asked her a question she said was in the minds of many fans. "What would happen if Ranma were to get pregnant while he was a girl?"

Takahashi's answer: "I really don't care to think about that...and neither should you."

[/edit]

 

[Jack Haggerty]

Perhaps this could be an explainaton of how Dire Animals (Druid father, animal mother), and/or Lycanthropes (Druid mother, animal father) originally came into existence.

 

[Black Omega]

[Edit]
For those of you familiar with anime, I'm reminded of something I read in a magazine once. In the anime Ranma 1/2 there is a boy (Ranma) who, when doused with cold water, turns into a girl. Hot water turns him back again. In an interview with the creator of the anime, Rumiko Takahashi, a fan-interviewer asked her a question she said was in the minds of many fans. "What would happen if Ranma were to get pregnant while he was a girl?"

Takahashi's answer: "I really don't care to think about that...and neither should you."

[/edit]

Heh, I recall this. That question was brought up in a few fanfics as well. It seems like such a natural question. Or maybe unnatural.

 

[Rel]

I am the GM for Speaks With Stone and so ultimately, this will be my call. We had a discussion about it the other day that was very reasoned. I don't get the sense that Speaks is trying to abuse the rules in any way. I think he was just sort of asking, "What if...?"

From a strictly scientific point of view, I think it could be argued that these spells are merely altering the form of the creature in question (or the intelligence in the case of Awaken). They don't alter the DNA and therefore none of these traits could be passed on to the offspring. In fact, this would suggest that a Wild Shaped Druid breeding with an animal could not even produce a viable offspring.

But, in a world where there are such things as Half-Orcs, Half-Elves, Centaurs and other creatures that appear to be clear "combinantions" of two (or more) other species, I think it may be possible that in some circumstances a viable offspring could be produced that would carry at least some of the extraordinary traits of the parents.

The question of whether this would be advisable is another matter entirely. If human-like intelligence is added to a wild creature, you could see some decidedly unnatural results. An Awakened pack of wolves might use their heightened intelligence to become uber-hunters and depopulate their territory of all game animals. Or they might become rabbit farmers.

Either of those outcomes may or may not be agreeable to any local Druids. It seems to me that given the various attitudes of different Druids, there could be many opposing opinions about the matter.

As such, I am going to devote a little more thought to the attitude about these things, at least for the organization that the PC Druid is a part of. I welcome any further opinions on the matter from those on the board.

 

[Speaks With Stone]

With appologies to Lord Pendragon and Rumiko Takahashi . . .

I don't really have any intentions of trying to breed a master race in Rel's campaign world. Much of this is in order to understand the druid place in the world. I am currently trying to preserve wildlands on the edge of civilization. I have considered relocating beasts and finding an ecologically sound method of balancing new species with the old. One method of doing so is improving the local species - or if possible improving the local species to form a guardian species to protect the wildlands after I'm gone. (Let's face it, in the campaign I'm in, life expectancy is not high).

I also am curious if in a world full of druids casting Awaken and Reincarnate that results in lots of magical beasts that look like animals but have human intelligence, where they fall in the niche. The druids must find that altering nature in selective ways is okay, or they wouldn't teach spells that do it.

Consider awakening 2 oak trees. Will they start dropping seeds for a forest full of intelligent trees? With time and patience, a druid grove could provide a grove with natural defenders that would long outlive themselves (assuming they are human or in Rel's campaign).

It seems to me that when they teach you these spells, they would also teach you the do's and dont's. Which would obviously depend on the druid circle itself and differing opinions are bound to develop.

 

[Wippit Guud]

So, what you people are discussing in a nutshell, is that if you start creating more intelligent wolves, you'll breed out normal wolves? Has it every occurred to anyone that there already is an intelligent breed of wolves, and it hassn't affected standard wolf populations?

Lets see what kind of animals may have been created doing something along these lines:

Basilisk - Somewhere I saw a half-medusa template, if you applied that to several lizards, and let them breed, potentially you'll get a reptile with a gaze attack.

Blink Dog - Perhaps an imbue with spell accident that created a new species.

Centaur - A good case for the wild-shaped druid, what animal more combines a human and animal parent?

Cockatrice - Put that half-medusa template on a rooster and some chickens.

Dragon Turtle - Half-dragon templates applied to giant turtles and bred.

Dragonne - Half-dragon templates applied to a lion

Gnoll - Hyena-shaped druid and a hyena, but with a different effect than that of the centaur.

Gorgon - Yet another half-medusa possibility.

Lizardfolk - Druid and giant lizard, along the same lines as a gnoll.

Naga - Druid and snake, with an extreme case of combination.

Troglodyte - Perhaps a an offshoot of lizardfolk?

Winter Wolf - Half-elemental wolves which have created a species of their own.

Worg - What should've been poined out at the beginning, a more intelligent species of wolf.

I'm not saying it's perfect, it's hard to justify some monster, such as minotaur (as it's a bull, the druid must carry the baby, can't see that happening), and lycanthropy is a disease that can be transmitted, so I think that falls outside this.

Ironically, unless it's classified as a humanoid, everything above is a 'magical beast' with the exception of nagas, which are abberations. But as I said, it's an extreme case ifyou follow this line.

 

[drowdude]

I think the 1 hr/level duration of wildshape would make gestation very difficult.

I would like to point out that the version of Wildshape described in MotW makes no reference to the Polymorph Self spell, and makes no mention (that I can find) of a limit to the duration of a druid's Wildshape.

 

[Infinite Monkey]

If this were to come up in my campaign, I think I would rule that the wildshaped druid / awakened animal is a magical effect layed over an otherwise normal creature. A druid can't breed with a bear, so neither can a wildshaped druid, and two normal creatures breeding won't bear intelligent young, so neither will awakened creatures.

Dragons and outsiders and the like can breed with other races, but I seem to remember that it is specifically stated that this is due to their highly magical nature or something.

I wouldn't entirely stop a druid from creating a race of intelligent creatures, but I think it would require more than just a couple of spells.

Just my 2c

 

[orbitalfreak]

The biggest question here would be whether or not the shapechanged druid (or awakened animal) has their DNA (or respective genetic material) altered in any way. If the DNA is modified, then breeding between like forms may be possible.

There is a possibility of an arguement _against_ the modification of DNA. From MotW:

...
The druid also retains her own type (for example, humanoid)...

This seems to suggest that only the Druid's form changes, but that her DNA, her "self," remains the same. I do not see that a Druid could breed with these animals (unless human and "subject creature" DNA is naturally compatible).

Along the same lines, with Awaken Animal, the creature's type does change. Two possibilites exist here:
(1) The creature's DNA is modified, and these modifications might possibly be passed down to future generations; or
(2) Due to the now-magical nature of the creature, certain effects no longer affect it; It's DNA is not, however, modified.

I like Wippit's reasoning behind the monsters listed and possible parentage thereof; this seems to be in accordance with number (1) above, which is what I'm leaning towards. The rest of the discussion will _assume_ that (1) is true.

If these modifications are genetic, then which are dominant and which are recessive? Having an awakened wolf will make it more intelligent, but when it breeds, will its or its mate's genes for intelligence dominate? I am inclined to believe that high intelligence is a recessive trait, and that lower intelligence is dominant. Think about this: If high Int was dominant, then when two members of a species mated, the offspring would inherit the higher of the parents Int genes, thereby giving it a better chance to be smarter (this is not a guarantee to be a genius, however. Random stat generation [representing mutations, manipulations, and luck in DNA combinations] will provide the possibility of even a complete idiot being born to two beings of God-Like Intelligence.) The result of this would be more and more offspring over generations having higher and higher intelligences, and with UP being the only way to go.

Of course, this all assumes that Intelligence can be modified by genetics. Certainly, certain things affecting thought processes can be determined by genetics. Mental illnesses are evidence of this, from retardation, to emotional troubles due to chemical imbalances, to neurons grown in such a way as to make a person's memory nearly idetic(sp?) memory. But what about a person's (or in this case, animal's) capability to have intelligent thought? I personally do not know if this is dictated by DNA, or if a person's upbringing, or by academic motivation. If a person's Intelligence is not dictated by DNA, then having intelligent parents will not have an effect on the offspring. This applies to animals as well as people (unless of course, DNA does dictate intelligence for some creatures).

[/essay]
Yikes! I didn't set out to write a 3150 character/480 word essay on the subject. I didn't even know I had such strong views. Oh well, that's my opinion.