D&D 4E Bridging the cognitive gap between how the game rules work and what they tell us about the setting

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

4e was pushed out before it was ready and is badly explained. I'm not fixing problems, I'm pointing out what the rules say but could have been more clearly expressed.

Yeah, I agree with your posts in general. Also 4e could have been better explained. And honestly, I'm not even sure the designers knew what they were making as a whole at launch either.

But at this point who cares, right?

There is at least one paradigm of interpreting the rules that makes everything hold together and make sense, and others that turn it into nonsense.

Knowing what we know now, why would anyone approach 4e within a paradigm that turns it into nonsense?

I can see arguments that people don't like that paradigm and it's too much of a cognitive departure for them to enjoy, etc. So that is why they don't play 4e. But all this continuing on and on that 4e falls apart if you interpret HP as only meat points, or minions have 1 HP relative to the world instead of relative to PCs of X level, or DCs scale with level while the in universe object remains the same, etc etc.

I mean, just don't do it. If people can't approach 4e within a paradigm that is known to work, walk away. I can respect that. What I don't understand is people insisting on approaching 4e from assumptions that cause it to turn into nonsense, and then saying, "See, I told you so!".

This is your own presumption, which is reflected nowhere in the actual operations of the game. Someone being hit with a red dragon's breath weapon for over a hundred hit points of damage and surviving because they have two hundred hit points has not taken "cosmetic level" injuries. They've taken serious, massive injuries that they're nevertheless gritting their teeth and pushing through, showcasing action movie-levels of toughness.

4e is trying to emulate the heroic fantasy genre, and the rules are there to support the in game fiction around this.

Yes, Hit Points should have been relabeled Heroic Stamina or some such. Much like they always have, hit points represent how close you are to being "taken out" of the scene. No more, no less.

What genre would be emulated if the 100 hit points represented a hero's flesh being melted off, and they just "pushed though" this?

 

[Alzrius]

4e is trying to emulate the heroic fantasy genre, and the rules are there to support the in game fiction around this.

Yes, Hit Points should have been relabeled Heroic Stamina or some such. Much like they always have, hit points represent how close you are to being "taken out" of the scene. No more, no less.

What genre would be emulated if the 100 hit points represented a hero's flesh being melted off, and they just "pushed though" this?

I'd say "epic fantasy," in that by the time you're able to lose that many hit points due to taking such incredible damage, you're pushing (if not completely beyond) the boundaries of mortality. It's xianxia by that point, which matches with the progressive nature of what characters at that stage can do. Which strikes me as entirely appropriate; 4E, like 3E, offers a dramatic scale in power across the levels that characters can progress through, so expectations of what the characters are capable of later in their careers should scale accordingly.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

I'd say "epic fantasy," in that by the time you're able to lose that many hit points due to taking such incredible damage, you're pushing (if not completely beyond) the boundaries of mortality. It's xianxia by that point, which matches with the progressive nature of what characters at that stage can do. Which strikes me as entirely appropriate; 4E, like 3E, offers a dramatic scale in power across the levels that characters can progress through, so expectations of what the characters are capable of later in their careers should scale accordingly.

I can't speak to xianxia, but even in "epic fantasy" I don't see heroes actually "taking" such incredible damage.

Damage avoidance and mitigation seem much more common in genre. Rather than heroes getting their flesh melted off and regenerating or getting all their neck, limbs, and ribs broken and then healing them, you much more often see deflecting the fire breath with a shield or magical force field, or the fire just isn't as effective against this mythic flesh.

 

[Zeromaru X]

Have you watched anime? There is this trope when the characters are nearly dead and they still stand up and continue fighting. That's what the "bloodied" concept and fighting at low hit points wanted to emulate.

 

[Alzrius]

I can't speak to xianxia, but even in "epic fantasy" I don't see heroes actually "taking" such incredible damage.

Damage avoidance and mitigation seem much more common in genre. Rather than heroes getting their flesh melted off and regenerating or getting all their neck, limbs, and ribs broken and then healing them, you much more often see deflecting the fire breath with a shield or magical force field, or the fire just isn't as effective against this mythic flesh.

That strikes me as being characteristic of "heroic fantasy" where genre emulation is concerned, but that seems to be more in line with 4E's heroic tier (i.e. levels 1-10). By the time they've gotten to paragon tier (levels 11-20), it looks to me like they've largely left behind most of the constraints of what mortal heroes can do, to the point where it strikes me as being counterintuitive to still have them operate under the idea that they're still working under those paradigms. And of course, by the time they get to epic tier (levels 21-30), the idea is ratcheted up even further.

 

[Zeromaru X]

And of course, by the time they get to epic tier (levels 21-30), the idea is ratcheted up even further

To the point that nearly all Epic Destinies have an anti-death mechanic.

 

[James Gasik]

To the point that nearly all Epic Destinies have an anti-death mechanic.

My favorite was the one where you're basically the Dread Pirate Roberts/Santiago- if you die, one of your lieutenants who has all your abilities, shows up and assumes your identity, thus ensuring your legend never dies.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

That strikes me as being characteristic of "heroic fantasy" where genre emulation is concerned, but that seems to be more in line with 4E's heroic tier (i.e. levels 1-10). By the time they've gotten to paragon tier (levels 11-20), it looks to me like they've largely left behind most of the constraints of what mortal heroes can do, to the point where it strikes me as being counterintuitive to still have them operate under the idea that they're still working under those paradigms. And of course, by the time they get to epic tier (levels 21-30), the idea is ratcheted up even further.

Yeah fair enough. Epic should be doing epic stuff and surviving epic things. And they do. But I think it still points to hit points being a measure of being closer or farther from being “taken out” than any specific interpretation of damage or injury level.

 

[Alzrius]

Yeah fair enough. Epic should be doing epic stuff and surviving epic things. And they do. But I think it still points to hit points being a measure of being closer or farther from being “taken out” than any specific interpretation of damage or injury level.

As far as 4E goes, it looks to me like it points to both at the same time. Hence this thread.

 

[Irlo]

As far as 4E goes, it looks to me like it points to both at the same time. Hence this thread.

It seems that presents a larger cognitive gap for some people than for others. For me, trying to interpret hit points strictly as either damage or as staying power is more mentally taxing than treating them as an abstraction of both — whatever I need them to be at any given time. I get that doesn’t work for everyone.