Broken Paladin's Code Help

[andrew]

No, I don't mean the paladin's code is broken, I mean the paladin broke his code. I'm not sure how I should handle this next. I'll set up the situation for you and my current thoughts on the matter. I'd appreciate any suggestions on how you'd handle it as a DM or like it handled as a player.

The Situation:
Our dwarven paladin (Pal3/Ftr2) was aiding a group of the local baron's men in clearing out some monster invested caves. All the baron's men died, including their company leader. The dwarven paladin and his new friends took all the gear from the dead men (including their horses).

Earlier, the baron's sergeant had made it explicitly clear that the baron considered all treasure found on his lands as part of dungeoneering/treasure hunting/monster slaying to belong to him. (Especially because most of it was often stolen from him or his subjects.) The baron considered it his property, but offered licenses or comissions to find treasure, much like hunting or farming on his lands.

Breaking the Code:
Upon his return to the baron, the dwarven paladin returned the dead sergeant's badge of office and two chests of silver to the baron (believing these chests to personally belong to the baron). He did not return the weapons he had found in the caverns or the hoard of weapons and other treasure from the dragon he and his new friends slayed in the same cavern.

The baron pressed him on these issues a little further and directly asked him about the personal gear of the dead men. At this point, the paladin stated that all their gear was lost or destroyed in the fight. The baron mentioned that he'd be using the recovered treasure chests to help restaff his company and as welfare for the widows and children the men left behind.

DM's Toughts:
To me, the paladin has willfully broken his vows. Not only did he take what the baron considered his treasure (the dragon's hoard), but he took the possessions of the baron's men and flat out lied to the baron about it. He's also a horse thief! Even given an opportunity to make things right (with the widows and children) the paladin greedily choose to serve himself.

I have not mentioned this to the player. As far as I can tell, the player hasn't considered the actions at all. My first reaction is to deny his PC his powers the next time he tries to use them. However, I don't want to seem heavy-handed. I've also considered sending him a dream or vision and giving him "one more chance". But that seems to go a little easy on him. Another option is for his powers to fail him one by one until he gives up in frustration. I could also have a priest reproach him (but how does the priest find out?) Regardless, he will need to atone and I have a few quests in mind. How would you handle it? I don't want the player to feel like I'm not being fair, but I don't want the PCs misconduct to go unchecked. Thanks!

 

[Gargoyle]

According to the Code paladins must...

"respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying,..." etc.

Stealing from the baron and lying about it are clearly against the code. These are chaotic actions though, not evil, so the correct ruling is that he becomes an ex-paladin if you consider what he did to be a "gross violation" of the code.

Since he didn't commit an evil act to lose his paladinhood, he could ask the church to cast an atonement spell to get his class abilities back. (an evil action would cause him to lose his abilities forever, with no chance of getting them back)

Personally, I'd say that, based on your post, it was a gross violation of the code, and I'd take away his powers until he atones. Atonement is a second chance. Not taking away his powers cheapens the paladin class, IMO. But it is really up to you.

 

[Quickbeam]

Alrighty then...

Let's see if I can sum this up:
-- The paladin (I use the term loosely) lied out of greed
-- He ignored the baron's remarks about helping the families of the deceased
-- He stole horses and plundered bodies
-- He made no effort to lay the dead in a fitting place of rest
-- Oh, and he lied for greed...did I mention that?

Only one of two options seem viable IMO:
1) Your player is a newbie and doesn't understand the paladin's code. A house rule may allow the paladin to multiclass, but even so his actions are anything but lawful or good, regardless of how you perceive either facet of his alignment. Make an effort to explain the PC's transgressions and penalties associated with unacceptable paladin behavior; give your player a chance to remedy the situation at the beginning of next session; spend some time helping him put a code down on paper; make him roleplay a paladin -- not a chaotic neutral fighter with some nice benfits thrown in which is what you're dealing with!!
2) Your player doesn't give a rip about the expected trade off for playing a paladin -- namely some excellent abilities for a restricted form of behavior. You cannot permit him to reap the rewards without paying the price. So, strip him of his powers and send the PC on a quest of atonement. If he balks, then I suppose your group now has a 5th level fighter of sorts.

 

[Ma'varkith]

From the SRD
Ex-Paladins: A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of
conduct loses all special abilities and spells, including the service of the paladin's warhorse. She also may not progress in levels
as a paladin. She regains her abilities if she atones for her violations, as appropriate.

I'd say that his actions weren't "Evil" - Chaotic, possibly, and definately self-serving. Most definately not noble and heroic. You haven't told us about the Code of Conduct you are holding the character to, so Ican't use that as a measure of whether or not he's violated something there.

Trouble is, the question of "what does it take to make a paladin fall" is in a very "grey" area, subject to DM call. If I were his DM, there would definately be repercussions for his actions, but I'd lessen their severity due to the Paladin's inexperience and the fact that the acts were not *grossly* evil.

Perhaps a removal of his paladin special abilities until he makes restitution to the widows and admits his dishonesty to the Baron, followed by an agreement of further service to the Baron.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

You might try asking the player what his view is. Just a thought.

Having his powers start failing until he makes some efforts as restitution would be appropriate.

 

[jollyninja]

yup, the player has left you no choice but to take the powers away, that's the risk you take when playing a paladin, their code is a hard one to play for alot of people. it's almost against human nature to be that squeaky clean all of the time. with what he has done though i would definitely give the opportunity for attonement but only if the paladin confesses to the baron and gives up the loot. if he will not do that at the first opportunity after consulting a priest, which he will probably do when his abilities no longer work, he is obviously no longer palladin material. if he shows no remorse, he is not even lawful good, unless he simply does not believe the baron will use the money for the purposes that he has stated.

 

[andrew]

I have no question in my mind as to whether or not the paladin broke his code. He commited several acts of chaotic and selfish behaviour. At least it is a series of minor offenses, at worst it is a pattern of depravity.

We use a fairly generic paladin's code based on the PH. Additionally, all paladins are ordained members of the clergy and are associated with some sect of the church.

I have not yet had a chance to talk with the player about it. I wasn't 100% sure if it would work out better if I left the problem to resolve itself entirely in game. When I do get to talk to him, it will be extremely helpful to have some other DMs advice on the subject, which is why I'm asking here.

I'd like to think the player isn't a newbie. He's been playing for 2 1/2 years with me now and has had this paladin for one year. This is the first time he has done anything that's raised a question in my mind. Quickbeam may be correct and the player just doesn't care.

The PC will face some kind of repurcussions for these acts, I'm just not sure how swift or severe it should be. In any case, the powers will be restored through atonement. Below are the options I was considering. I'd appreciated feedback or suggestions on these:

-immediate loss of all powers, atonement necessary
-gradual loss of powers, atonement necessary
-loss of a few key powers, atonement necessary
-priest (or vision) reminds PC that he has strayed from the path after losing one or two powers, atonement necessary
-priest (or vision) reminds PC that he has strayed from the path before losing his powers, no atonement necessary
-loss of powers, but only has to confess and make good on his misdeeds, no atonement necessary
Thanks again.

 

[Aaron L]

Remove his powers immediately. If he repents, allow him to Attone and quest to restore his powers, but watch him carefully after this. At the first sign of faltering, strip his powers again. He's on the edge. Repeat offense and losing respect for their rules is how paladins fall.

 

[andrew]

Atonement is a second chance. Not taking away his powers cheapens the paladin class, IMO. But it is really up to you.

This is how I was thinking, but I didn't want to come off as heavy-handed, unfair or as the "evil" DM. Thanks.

 

[Daevin]

First off give him a vision so he understands whats going on in game. He might have a "sense that something isnt right" till he tries to use his powers... then poof nothing is there.. I wouldnt make him tell the baron what happened but I would make him show justice to the families of the dead. No atonement spell needed as long as his character "atones" for his misdeeds.