Broken Paladin's Code Help

[Haldarin]

He is jeopardizing the safety of the Barony by holding back weapons that should be rightfully used to protect the lives of the people. Instead of arming troops with the magic weapons, the baron will need to spend money from the horde to rebuild his forces. That will reduce the amount of money available to support the families of the deceased. His actions hurt a lot of people. He shouldn't be allowed to receive atonement until he recognizes that, returns the treasure and asks for forgiveness.

How you handle his paladin status until then is up for grabs. I would start the power loss slowly. The goal is for him to realize what he has done and respond because it is the right thing to do, not because he has displeased the godfather. Send him dreams that hint at the consequences of his actions. Tell him that he begins to notice that he doesn't feel connected as to his god during his morning prayers. Maybe his Detect Evil starts to take longer to work and stat bonuses for Saving Throws and Smite Evil start falling.

Think about the impact of his withheld treasure on the Barony and imagine a timeline of events. The longer he takes to return with the treasure, the greater the consequences. The PC's responsiveness will determine the extent of the damage and his atonement.

 

[Gargoyle]

....

I'd like to think the player isn't a newbie. He's been playing for 2 1/2 years with me now and has had this paladin for one year. This is the first time he has done anything that's raised a question in my mind. Quickbeam may be correct and the player just doesn't care.

This makes me wonder if the player is just testing you as a DM, or is just roleplaying the paladin chaotically for the fun of flirting with evil. The former would irritate me, but the latter might be fun. Not all players need to play the paladin class with the intent of not falling from grace. If you allow evil characters, maybe he's just working towards being a blackguard.

The PC will face some kind of repurcussions for these acts, I'm just not sure how swift or severe it should be. In any case, the powers will be restored through atonement. Below are the options I was considering. I'd appreciated feedback or suggestions on these:

-immediate loss of all powers, atonement necessary
-gradual loss of powers, atonement necessary
-loss of a few key powers, atonement necessary
-priest (or vision) reminds PC that he has strayed from the path after losing one or two powers, atonement necessary
-priest (or vision) reminds PC that he has strayed from the path before losing his powers, no atonement necessary
-loss of powers, but only has to confess and make good on his misdeeds, no atonement necessary
Thanks again.

Immediate loss of all powers, atonement necessary, would be my choice. The other options seem to cheapen the class for me. And he wouldn't realize his powers were gone until he tries to use them. (first time he rolls a saving throw his bonus from Divine Grace doesn't help, discovers he can't lay on hands, turning automatically fails even on a successful roll). That's how I picture it. But you could have them slip away gradually or have him suddenly realize that they are gone at some specific time, maybe at the crack of dawn, or do it in some other way. Again, it's up to you.

The reason I take what may seem to some to be a hard-line approach (but is really just following the rules) is that I think paladins should be hard to play. It's a very cool class when played properly.

Note that if he was a new player and didn't really understand the paladin class, I'd probably talk to him out of the game about it(which wouldn't hurt in any case). Also, if there was doubt in the my mind that he violated the Code (ie if the Baron was an evil tyrant and not the "legitimate authority" and the paladin didn't lie to him) then I'd probably not take away his powers at all, and might just have him receive dreams or visions with guidance on how to act more honorably. After all, it takes "gross violations" of the Code (or an evil act) to lose your powers and become an ex-paladin.

I have a new player in my game who tried to play a paladin, and found it wasn't for her, so I let her change retroactively to a fighter. She's happier and the game is more fun for everyone. Paladins aren't for everybody.

 

[adndgamer]

Paladins are supposed to be tought to play, and it's up to the DM to make sure they stay that way. I would definitely strip him of his powers immediately, and make him quest.

It's not being heavy-handed or whatnot -- It's being fair and true to the paladin spirit.

Good luck.

-Paul

 

[Eridanis]

The pally's toast

I can see the merit of giving the player a warning before stripping his powers, and also of doing it immediately. I weigh in on the immediately side, because he committed several sins against his code, within a short space of time, and did it willfully, knowing that his actions were proscribed not only by his code, but also by the direct orders of the Baron.

Don't even wait until he needs one of his powers - tell the player that the character suddenly feels the warm, bright embrace of his deity removed from him - like a warm blanket ripped from you while outdoors on a cold night, only far more intense, as it is a spiritual moment - and his conscience should cry out to heaven, but be not heard until he has atoned.

(As background: I do not play my paladin as 'lawful stupid' - while I hold to my code, I can think of one instance where I did not volunteer information about a sword we had recovered, justifying it because it was explicitly stated before we set out that anything we found in the catacombs we visited could be used by us. However, if I had been questioned about it specifically, I would have immediately answered truthfully. Other than that instance, I don't think I've ever even come close to the border - although I'd be interested to know if my DM thought the same (Wulf, are you reading?). )

 

[andrew]

I'm genuinely surprised by the number of people in the swift and extreme camp. I really thought I was being overzealous in my desire to strip him of his powers. Paladin has always been my favorite class and I hate to see it treated just like a fighter with cool powers.

Gargoyle wrote

This makes me wonder if the player is just testing you as a DM, or is just roleplaying the paladin chaotically for the fun of flirting with evil. The former would irritate me, but the latter might be fun. Not all players need to play the paladin class with the intent of not falling from grace. If you allow evil characters, maybe he's just working towards being a blackguard.

I doubt that the latter is an option in this case. The player really wants a certain prestige class (essentially a special kind of dwarven knight) where lawful is one of the prereqs. The former is certainly more plausible given this player. Ug, I sure hope that's not the case.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Eridanis, I really like your description for the loss of powers. I'll probably combine that with the immediate loss of power. I'll let him figure out what he's done wrong and what he needs to do next (prodded along be visions or priests if necessary.)

 

[Conaill]

I'd say... have him be plagued by nightmares the following night. Be creative. Try to guilt-trip him. He wakes up being Fatigued.

If that doesn't make him 'fess up, have the stolen gear burn his hand whenever he touches it. Plus he can no longer use his paladin abilities to benefit himself.

Give him another day of that. Nightmares again that night, waking up Fatigued in the morning. If he still hasn't confessed, he loses all his paladin abilities.

Nightmares again, Fatigue, etc. If he *still* hasn't confessed, have someone recognize one of the items the party stole. E.g. a woman recognizes the sword one of the other PC's carries as belonging to her husband (one of the dead baron's men).

 

[bret]

I agree that with the multiple infractions, it should be an immediate loss of power.

I like the idea of using dreams to indicate the repercussions. The other way would be to mention to the Paladin at some appropriate time 'You feel fear in your heart.'

A Paladin is immune to fear. I interprete this as being no longer capable of even feeling that particular emotion. If you play it the same way, this should be a big signal to the player that something isn't right.


As for the player, is it possible that he just wasn't thinking in character that one session? It is sometimes hard to get into a character's mindset, especially if you play multiple characters or it has been a while since the last session.

As for the Attonement, if the player seeks it I would make sure he has to take a vow of poverty for a while. Try to cure him of his greed by demonstrating that he can live with little or no money. If there is a cleric of campatible faith travelling with him, charge that cleric with deciding all financial matters for the paladin. If not, consider assigning a cleric or monk to aid him in such endevors. The aid is specifically chosen such that he currently isn't under a vow of poverty.

 

[enrious]

As a paladin player, I think that anything short of immediate loss of powers and atonement cheapens the class.

Take away his powers, give him a vision of what he has to do but be firm on this.

Otherwise, he's just playing a Fighter/Cleric.

 

[Conaill]

Here's another option: Talk to him, make it clear that this was a flagrant violation of his Paladin's Code. Then ask him, "So, what would you think is an appropriate punishment?"

If he really is a good roleplayer, and this was just a one-time slip-up, what better solution than having him put his heart into roleplaying his punishment and atonement?

 

[ekibismuth]

Feeling sick.

I think that the paladin should suffer some physical illness as a result of breaking his codes. This could be real(divine) or psychosomatic.

Maybe he just feels tired all the time, or has a general malaise (?sp). I would definitely give him a physical conscience related effect.

This would be in addition to a loss of powers, whether immediate or gradual.


Of course in extreme cases of player ignorance you could also have him struck by deafness/blindness/etc... until the player gets the picture and atones.