Brutal Seething Surge

[Jeremy]

At high levels, the equation changes somewhat since unlike most spells, Brutal Seething Surge doesn't have a damage cap. Consequently, it will be doing more damage than Vampiric Touch.

1d8+20 > 10d6 no save?

I thought that was 24 > 35. I could be off, but 3.5 and 4.5 x10 and x1...

In any case, I'm for any spell that has the sorcerer trying to pretend he's a fighter and swinging 1-3 times per round for damage + daze. In fact, that's what the first level spell Bladesong does. Add it to a sword and it says save or daze each hit.

Each round that he's maintaining that Surge is another round he's not dropping 2 Horrid Wiltings and a Fireball on my group. Daze one critter at a time, as long as you aren't killing 10/round.

 

[KarinsDad]

I thought that was 24 > 35. I could be off, but 3.5 and 4.5 x10 and x1...

Well, you'd be wrong.

24 < 35

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

No.

Why would you need it?

That characters in the game in question are high enough level that even the wizards probably get multiple attacks.

 

[Destil]

Re: Ray

Originally posted by Happiest_Sadist Ray of Enfeeblement 1st level, hit a couple of these rays for long lasting paralyisis. Even one puts the hurt down.]

Ray inflicts an enchantment penelity, not ability score damage. Like most bonuses & penelities more than one casting would overlap, not stack. Empowered rays can be quite effective, however, but then again you're dealing with third level spells.

 

[KarinsDad]

That characters in the game in question are high enough level that even the wizards probably get multiple attacks.

Again, so?

That means that he has (without Haste) a good chance of damaging a single opponent (if he is trying to take out just one character and hits with both attacks) for about 20% to 60% damage (depending on class and CON) and a good chance of Dazing him (20% to 80%, depending on class and Will save) for 1D3 rounds. This, of course, assumes he hits with both attacks. He could miss with one or both.

If his opponent is not dazed, he destroys the Spectral Hand (most of the time with a full round attack) which forces the caster to either lose the Surge by casting another spell, or not cast any other spells and use the Surge in melee combat or use other things like a crossbow.

How is this any more broken than Hold Person where the save fail chance might be 10% to 60%, but it lasts for 15 rounds (at that level) and you are totally defenseless (i.e. CDG time).

Spectral Hand is a mental crutch for the Brutal Seething Surge spell. Yes, it gives it range, but it lures the caster into a false sense of security. At most, it allows BSS to work for a round or two at range, then suddenly once it gets destroyed or dispelled, the caster has already used up two rounds casting two spells (or two rounds casting three spells with Haste), may or may not have damaged/dazed an opponent or two, and now he has to start all over again. So, 3 or 4 rounds are used up and he has little to show for it.

 

[Al]

Against.

The thing that gets me is that this very quickly gets *very* nasty. The pain isn't in the damage or the Fort save, but the barrage effect.

Consider the scenario: a mage and his familiar (raven or similar) with a Spectral Hand in tow casts this spell. They are all Hasted. The familiar has moved to flank with the hand.

Let us take the wizard to be 7th level; his opponent is a fighter of comparable level. We are using standard DMG statted characters.

Ok, first calculate the probability of making the touch attack. The mage's to hit is just +3, but the raven's is +7, and the hand's is +5. Add on the flanking bonuses, and they rise to +5/+9/+7 respectively.

The fighter's touch AC is 11. Thus, the wizard has a 75% chance of touching, the raven a 95% chance and the hand an 85% chance of touching.

Now here's the kicker: the number of attacks they can pull off and hit with. The wizard hits with (2x0.75), the raven with (2x0.95), the hand with (2x0.85). Total hits per round=1.5+1.9+1.7=5.1 attacks to hit. Average damage per hit=4.5 (average of d8) + 7 = 11.5. So that's 5.1 x 11.5 damage per round, or 58.65 PER ROUND with no save, or enough to floor the fighter in a single round in laymen's terms, on average rolls and with no save.

But that's not the sting in the tail. The sting is that Fort save or dazing. Because the fighter is going to have to make 5 Fort saves (rounding 5.1 down) or else get dazed. At the moment his Fort save is +8- pretty respectable against the wizard's DC of 16. He only need roll an 8, a 65% chance of saving. But the chances of him making it five times are (0.65^5), or about 11%.

So, here's the conclusion (all at 7th level):

On average rolls, this spell can do enough damage to floor a fighter of equivalent level (of course, this is worse against say wizards and the like).

If not defeated, the chances of not being dazed (by which time the fighter will be easily mopped up by continued barrage of this spell) are just over 11%, making this an almost surefire bet for the wizard.

At lower levels, the damage effect will be even worse, as is the disparity between Fort saves and DCs. At higher levels, this spell becomes less broken against high-hit point, good-Fort save characters, but not so against low-hit point weak-Fort saves.

At low-levels, this can easily kill even foes with high hit points and good Fort saves without breaking a sweat. At even high levels, it can easily mop up opposing wizards, rogues and the like. For a 3rd level spell to do this seems too powerful. I'm against.

 

[IanB]

A couple things about that last post:

1) You can't attack with your own touch and the spectral hand at the same time. Drop the attacks to either 2 from the hand or 2 from the mage, not 2 from each.

2) The raven, being tiny, has to move into the fighter's square to attack. This provokes an attack of opportunity. A 7th level fighter may be very capable of killing the familiar in one hit.

 

[KarinsDad]

A couple things about that last post:

1) You can't attack with your own touch and the spectral hand at the same time. Drop the attacks to either 2 from the hand or 2 from the mage, not 2 from each.

2) The raven, being tiny, has to move into the fighter's square to attack. This provokes an attack of opportunity. A 7th level fighter may be very capable of killing the familiar in one hit.

Additional notes on this:

3) In order for the Raven to flank, he must approach the Fighter from the opposing space, 10 feet away from the Wizard. That means that either the Wizard must cast two separate Haste spells, or the Raven loses his Haste spell for being beyond 5 feet from the Wizard.

4) Also, if you want to use the Raven, you must cast the ESS through him (I believe, the SRD does not say and I do not have my PHB with me). In other words, you put a touch spell on your familiar for his use as opposed to one spell for both the caster and the Ravens use.

5) The Wizard had to use up two rounds casting Haste, Spiritual Hand, ESS for the Raven, ESS for himself (assuming the ESS stays up on the Raven when he casts another spell). Best case, he can only attack in round 3 if he wants to use the Raven.

6) The number of attacks they can pull off and hit with. The wizard hits with 0 attacks since he wants to get his best chance which is the hand, the raven with (1x0.95), the hand with (2x0.85). Total hits per round= 0+0.95+1.7=2.65 attacks to hit. Average damage per hit=4.5 (average of d8) + 7 = 11.5. So that's 2.65 x 11.5 * 1.05 (critical chance) damage per round, or 32 per round with no save.

The fighter is going to have to make 2.65 Fort saves or else get dazed. At the moment his Fort save is +8- pretty respectable against the wizard's DC of 16. He only need roll an 8, a 65% chance of saving. But the chances of him making it 2.65 times are (0.65^2.65), or about 32%.

7) This assumes the Fighter does not kill or disable the Raven with the AoO. Personally, I might Trip the Raven as opposed to damaging it if I knew what it was up to.

8) This also assumes the Fighter has no deflection bonus to AC items.

9) Also, this assumes the Fighter was standing around doing nothing to the Wizard in round one and possible in round two if he won initiative.


Yes, this can be possible. However, with Haste and three rounds, I can throw 5 Magic Missile spells for 70 points of damage, 5 Hold Person spells from a wand which will almost definitely kill the Fighter (making 5 DC 15 Will saves for a 7th level Fighter is really hard) with a CDG (tie him up first, that gives you plenty of time), etc.

 

[Dinkeldog]

The party almost always casts mass haste in the first round, but there's no familiar to be at issue.

The spell seems more effective against spellcasters, with weaker Fort saves.

The sorcerer isn't the one casting mass haste. The wizard does that. They quickly came to a decision that the sorcerer's damaging spells are more effective than the wizard's, plus he has more spell slots to use.

If the sorcerer can daze his target, the target gets no chance to effect the spectral hands for d3 rounds, by which time he's gotten hit several more times and needed to make more fort saves.

Hold person affects a single target.

 

[Jeremy]

Very true. But also keep in mind, Hold Person affects a single target at range for much longer and makes him helpless instead of dazed.

Brutal Surge will generally only affect one target at a time as well unless there are several tightly grouped enemies.

I do have a question for you though, how do the spectral hands last long enough to make this spell a nuissance with at most 4 hp?

Even if it does get the drop on something and daze it, shouldn't an arrow or a magic missile or something else take it out so it can't continue to do that?

Touch spells are slightly more powerful than ranged spells because they are supposed to be more difficult to pull off. If a spectral hand is coming at me, I know it's got some bad mojo and I want it gone.