Brutal Seething Surge

[KarinsDad]

I do have a question for you though, how do the spectral hands last long enough to make this spell a nuissance with at most 4 hp?

Even if it does get the drop on something and daze it, shouldn't an arrow or a magic missile or something else take it out so it can't continue to do that?

Spectral Hands are a nuisance, but destroying them is not always automatic.

Magic Missile affects them normally, but if you only send one MM at it, you might not destroy it. You must send two to ensure it.

Normal weapons cannot affect Spectral Hand. You need a magic weapon or a damaging spell. Plus, since the hand is incorporeal, you only have a 50% chance of hitting it with a magic weapon or a spell. It's kind of like the miss chance for Total Concealment.

It also has an AC of 22 plus the casters Int modifier, and Improved Evasion with the casters saving throw modifiers. So, you could Fireball it and still not damage it. Or, attack it and miss.

So, if you attack it with a magic weapon, you will eventually destroy it. But, even with full round attacks, it might take you a few rounds.

 

[Jeremy]

I'd agree with you if this was a 4th or 6th level game where the spell is generally employed.

But in a fifteenth level game when foes can easily be up to 18th level, a quickened magic missile kills it with no chance of survival, every creature hits as a magical weapon or is wielding one, and dispel magics and SR abound...

I was just wondering how these hands were surviving so long with 2 hit points...

 

[KarinsDad]

I'd agree with you if this was a 4th or 6th level game where the spell is generally employed.

But in a fifteenth level game when foes can easily be up to 18th level, a quickened magic missile kills it with no chance of survival, every creature hits as a magical weapon or is wielding one, and dispel magics and SR abound...

I was just wondering how these hands were surviving so long with 2 hit points...

And, I told you how.

Not every character has Magic Missile, one of the few ways to ensure destruction of the hands.

Not every Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic will work.

Not every spell that does damage will work since the hands have Improved Evasion.

Even Magic Weapons have a 50% miss chance and the AC is reasonably high as well (at least against characters who are not totally combatant types).

Archers often use non-magic arrows with their magic bows, even at higher level (saving up their magic arrows for when they feel they need them unless they have a replenishing quiver of magic arrows). If they made that mistake, they would not damage the hands at all.

The hands probably will not survive many rounds in a high level game. But, if the caster is Hasted, one or two rounds might be enough to change the course of a combat.

 

[Dinkeldog]

I'd agree with you if this was a 4th or 6th level game where the spell is generally employed.

But in a fifteenth level game when foes can easily be up to 18th level, a quickened magic missile kills it with no chance of survival, every creature hits as a magical weapon or is wielding one, and dispel magics and SR abound...

I was just wondering how these hands were surviving so long with 2 hit points...

You'd be surprised how little magic missiles show up. Also, the first target has been spellcasters each time.

 

[Jeremy]

<shrugs>

Ok. I guess our high level games run a little different.

2 hp and 50% miss chance wouldn't last a single round, even before the enemy began seeing what the hand was doing. After the hand had nailed somebody (later in the round or at the beginning of the next round) that hand would go down.

It's just a second level spell. 3rd level characters can cast it.

Sorry KD, in my experience they just don't have the lifespan they apparently have in your games.

 

[Al]

Okay, just taking a few issues with some of the points posted:

1) You can't attack with your own touch and the spectral hand at the same time. Drop the attacks to either 2 from the hand or 2 from the mage, not 2 from each.

Is this true? The SRD is vague- was there an errata?

2) The raven, being tiny, has to move into the fighter's square to attack. This provokes an attack of opportunity. A 7th level fighter may be very capable of killing the familiar in one hit.

Highly unlikely. Even assuming that the raven has no buff or protective spells other than Haste, a few number crunchings can easily prove otherwise. The Raven's modified AC is 22 (2 size, 2 Dex, 4 haste, 4 natural) so the fighter hits on 10s (taking DMG as usual). 45% chance of hitting, damage on hit of 11.5, so average damage is around a mere 5hps. The raven has 14hps.

3) In order for the Raven to flank, he must approach the Fighter from the opposing space, 10 feet away from the Wizard. That means that either the Wizard must cast two separate Haste spells, or the Raven loses his Haste spell for being beyond 5 feet from the Wizard.

Arguable. The wizard can close range to adjacent to the fighter with the raven on his shoulder, having not yet cast ESS. The raven circles round, drawing an AoO then moving into the fighter's square. Since the wizard is adjacent to the familiar's square, they can share spells: and the fighter cannot AoO the wizard as an added boost (DMG fighter does not have Combat Reflexes.)

4) Also, if you want to use the Raven, you must cast the ESS through him (I believe, the SRD does not say and I do not have my PHB with me). In other words, you put a touch spell on your familiar for his use as opposed to one spell for both the caster and the Ravens use.

Untrue. Casters can share spells with familiars, and at 3rd level can share Touch attack spells.

) The Wizard had to use up two rounds casting Haste, Spiritual Hand, ESS for the Raven, ESS for himself (assuming the ESS stays up on the Raven when he casts another spell). Best case, he can only attack in round 3 if he wants to use the Raven.

Untrue again. In the first round the wizard closes to range, the raven circles round, drawing AoO if the wizard loses initiative, then the wizard casts Haste and Spectral Hand. In round 2, he casts ESS: both the raven and Hand can attack, so he only need delay one round until this is effective. If he can attack simulantaneously with the hand, that's five attacks this round.

6) The number of attacks they can pull off and hit with. The wizard hits with 0 attacks since he wants to get his best chance which is the hand, the raven with (1x0.95), the hand with (2x0.85). Total hits per round= 0+0.95+1.7=2.65 attacks to hit. Average damage per hit=4.5 (average of d8) + 7 = 11.5. So that's 2.65 x 11.5 * 1.05 (critical chance) damage per round, or 32 per round with no save.

The fighter is going to have to make 2.65 Fort saves or else get dazed. At the moment his Fort save is +8- pretty respectable against the wizard's DC of 16. He only need roll an 8, a 65% chance of saving. But the chances of him making it 2.65 times are (0.65^2.65), or about 32%.

Giving the benefit of the doubt on the Hand/caster issue, let us now assume only four attacks on round 2. (2x0.85)+(2x0.95)=3.6hits. 3.6*11.5*1.05 is approximately 40 damage per round.

As for Fort saves, 0.65^3.6=21.2% chance.

7) This assumes the Fighter does not kill or disable the Raven with the AoO. Personally, I might Trip the Raven as opposed to damaging it if I knew what it was up to.

I don't believe you can trip flying creatures. Even if you can, it's no big deal. The raven can get up next round as a MEA.

8) This also assumes the Fighter has no deflection bonus to AC items.

The one in the DMG doesn't. I usually use DMG characters to avoid silly page-long arguments about what feats, skills, equipment etc. the sample combatants have.

9) Also, this assumes the Fighter was standing around doing nothing to the Wizard in round one and possible in round two if he won initiative.

Granted, but the same logic applies to any spell. If this argument applies, then any spell could be said to be balanced on account on the wizard getting pummelled on round one.

Yes, this can be possible. However, with Haste and three rounds, I can throw 5 Magic Missile spells for 70 points of damage, 5 Hold Person spells from a wand which will almost definitely kill the Fighter (making 5 DC 15 Will saves for a 7th level Fighter is really hard) with a CDG (tie him up first, that gives you plenty of time), etc.

I have shown that you only need two rounds. 3 Magic Missiles does (at 7th level) 42 damage, so comparable on the damage front, but without the nice dazing. Hold Persons may be more effective, but this is attacking the fighter's weakest save. If we put ESS against arcanists, we see that they crumble even more pathetically- by putting it against strong Fort saves, it can be clearly shown as too powerful. And of course you'll have burned more spell levels, even with a Spectral Hand thrown in.

Very true. But also keep in mind, Hold Person affects a single target at range for much longer and makes him helpless instead of dazed.

See above.

I hold to my original statement.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Something occurs: The raven has to move into the enemies square to attack him. That means he has no threat range and therefore cannot flank.

Also, there are many many ways to deal much more damage at higher levels! Cast haste for two spells per round and start hammering out stuff like fireball, chain lightning, cone of cold, horrid wilting. You can easily reach 100 points of damage (or 50 if they do their saves) per round, and you'll dealing those from a safe distance, and to several enemies at once instead of a single one. And at higher levels you have enough spell slots to do this. But you don't have enough time to use spells that target only single enemies and need several rounds to be fully effective, reason being, I'll be dead long before I fire off all 15 or what charges of BSS!

 

[KarinsDad]

Is this true? The SRD is vague- was there an errata?

Yes, this is true.

You do ranged touch attacks. Just like any other attack, you only get your BAB / 5 round up attacks per round maximum (unless Hasted or using some bizarre TWF type touch attack feat outside of core rules).

Arguable. The wizard can close range to adjacent to the fighter with the raven on his shoulder, having not yet cast ESS. The raven circles round, drawing an AoO then moving into the fighter's square. Since the wizard is adjacent to the familiar's square, they can share spells: and the fighter cannot AoO the wizard as an added boost (DMG fighter does not have Combat Reflexes.)

Not really arguable. To flank, you must attack from a flanking position according to the rules. Nothing in the rules about tiny creatures indicates that they are an exception to this.

Untrue. Casters can share spells with familiars, and at 3rd level can share Touch attack spells.

Not untrue.

If you share a spell with a familiar and the familiar moves more than 5 feet away, it loses the spell. To flank, it cannot have a shared spell.

You are not sharing a touch spell with a familiar, you are instead giving it to him to use.

Untrue again. In the first round the wizard closes to range, the raven circles round, drawing AoO if the wizard loses initiative, then the wizard casts Haste and Spectral Hand. In round 2, he casts ESS: both the raven and Hand can attack, so he only need delay one round until this is effective. If he can attack simulantaneously with the hand, that's five attacks this round.

If you give a touch spell to a familiar, you NO LONGER have it. Both the Wizard and the Raven cannot both have the ESS.

And, if the Wizard casts any other spell like another ESS, the first ESS goes away, even if the Raven is using it.

Familiars are merely extensions of the Wizard with regard to touch spells.

So, either the Raven is using the ESS or the Wizard is. Not both.

Go read the PHB.

Giving the benefit of the doubt on the Hand/caster issue, let us now assume only four attacks on round 2. (2x0.85)+(2x0.95)=3.6hits. 3.6*11.5*1.05 is approximately 40 damage per round.

As for Fort saves, 0.65^3.6=21.2% chance.

The most attacks you can get is BAB / 5 round up + one for Haste.

Period.

No exceptions.

Regardless of whether you use the Hand, the Raven, or the Wizard.

The best you can do with the Raven is:

1) Cast Haste and ESS on the Raven on round one.
2) Have the delayed Raven circle around, also on round one, and it attacks twice, possibly with the Wizard flanking

Not Flanking:
2x0.85=1.7 hits. 1.7*11.5*1.05 = 20.5
Fort saves = 0.65^1.7 = 48%.

Flanking:
2x0.95=1.9 hits. 1.9*11.5*1.05 = 22.9
Fort saves = 0.65^1.9 = 44%.


The best you can do with the Wizard is:

1) Cast Haste and Spectral Hand on round one.
2) Cast ESS on round two and get one attack in, two attacks starting round 3.

Round 2:
1x0.75=0.75hits. 0.75*11.5*1.05 = 9
Fort saves = 0.65^0.75 = 72.4%.

Round 3:
2x0.75=1.5 hits. 1.5*11.5*1.05 = 18.1
Fort saves = 0.65^1.5 = 52%.

You could also get two attacks in round 2 if you have the Wizard blow off Spectral Hand and cast Haste and ESS in round one, but then his chance to hit decreases and he will be in melee combat.

I don't believe you can trip flying creatures. Even if you can, it's no big deal. The raven can get up next round as a MEA.

Why not?

Quote a rule, do not make things up like you did with additional attacks per round above with regard to familiars and the Spectral Hand spell.

I hold to my original statement.

Then, you are just being stubborn by changing the rules to fit the model in your head.

No doubt about it. ESS can be somewhat effective if used with spell combinations. But, not more so than a lot of other spells.

Picking a single one on one combat and saying "See, I can sometimes Daze this guy and win" is not very applicable to 95% of combats in DND.

 

[Al]

Fair enough. Some of my points were more queries than arguments, such as to do with Spectral Hand and the like, and I'll admit that I was just firing off the rules on familiars and touch spells from my head. I guess it's not too bad. I was a little sceptical initially, but then I tend to be on the sceptical side about most new spells.

 

[Dinkeldog]

KarinsDad, if the familiar and sorcerer both have haste, the sorcerer gets three attacks/round and the familiar two more. That makes the total five.

The best use of the spell is against wizards and rogues. Don't look at it as it applies to taking out a fighter. Look at what happens to a group that loses their arcane spellcasting support for d3 rounds over and over and over again.