Brutal Throw too strong?

[Slaved]

I bet this can be done lots better... yet this relatively easy thing was already a little shock to me. Take a halfogre or goliath or half-giant and forget about the racial levels for example... bigger weapons.

One thing at a time!

I would like to see how this build in particular works out before tossing in other things.

Right Slaved... some mistakes are there.
Dex: 10 is wrong as well as str 25, it should be 24 (and the points put into dex).
Speed: Right. Slow trait has been added afterwards.
Attack routine includes Rage and PBS (+3 to hit and damage)... that's why damage and to hit are kinda screwed up. I forgot to add the PBS damage.
Left hand throw should be a non-magical javelin (1d6 damage) option...

I bet this can be done lots better... yet this relatively easy thing was already a little shock to me. Take a halfogre or goliath or half-giant and forget about the racial levels for example... bigger weapons...

I will try to figure out what the character looks like with these changes then.
halforc Paragon3/Ftr4
Abilities Str 16 base +2 half-orc +2 paragon +1 level +2 enhancement=23 ( +6 ), Dex 15 (+2), Con 16 (+3), Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6 (28 point buy)
Init +2
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18
hp 67 (7 HD)
Fort +3para +4fight +3 con +2res=+12, Ref +1para +1fight +2dex+2res=+6, Will +1para +1fight -1wis+2res=+3
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 10 ft. (2 squares)
Melee (Spear twohanded) +13/+8 (1d8 + 9/*3)
Ranged (Spear+1) 1d8 +9 (1d8+9/*3)
Ranged Routine (Rage, PBS, Rapid Shot, TWF)
4 javelins:
+9 (1d6+6)/+9 (1d6+6)/+4 (1d6+3)/+4 (1d6+3)
4 javalins while in a rage:
+11 (1d6+8)/+11 (1d6+8)/+6 (1d6+5)/+6 (1d6+5)
Combat Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre strength (4000gp), 2 Spears (4gp), 10 javelins (10gp), ( Cloak of Protection +2 (4000 gp), Fullplatemail (1500 gp)
SQ Rage 1/day
Feats: Slow (trait), Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Quickdraw, PBS, TWF, Rapid Shot.

This character could easily afford to make all of the weapons masterwork which would give an extra +1 to attack. I don't think that the spears could be thrown with the extra off-hand attack from twf so I changed them to javalins. Even if they could be I think it is even more unlikely that this would not incur full twf penalties rather than the reduced ones so it is probably still better to use the javelins, or at least just use the javelin in the off hand.


Basically this character has no skills to speak of, only barely speaks a language, and moves only slightly faster than a toad. That full attack routine is pretty nice while raging and becomes even nicer if the spears actually are allowed but overall I do not think that it is showing that brutal throw is too strong. Perhaps for one of the other builds it will be more impressive but it does not look that way here.

 

[Darklone]

halforc Paragon3/Ftr4
Abilities Str 17+1 level +4 half-orc&paragon +2 enhancement=24 ( +7 ), Dex 15 (+2), Con 14 (+2), Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 6 (27 point buy)
Init +2
AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 18
hp 53 (7 HD)
Fort +12, Ref +6, Will +3
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed 20 ft. (2 squares)
Melee (Spear MW twohanded) +15/+10 (1d8 + 10/*3)
Ranged Routine (Rage, PBS, Rapid Shot, TWF)
4 MW javelins while in a rage at 20ft:
+16-2TWF-2RS+1PBS+1MW= +14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+5)/+9 (1d6+9)
SQ Rage 1/day
Feats: Power Attack, Brutal Throw, Quickdraw, PBS, TWF, Rapid Shot.

Slow removed (only good for arena), Con lowered, point buy optimized, Javelins used, PBS and MW included, little mistake removed (only one javelin comes from the weak left hand).

4 attacks at high to hit values. Sadly no spear here though I'm not yet convinced it's not allowed (would be great for Masterthrower critical increase at level 9)

I guess I might compare it to a bbn1/ftr6 human with Weapon Specialisation...

 

[Slaved]

If you go barb1/fighter6 you could instead pick up extra rage. You will lose out a bit on normal attack and damge but you will be able to do your trick for 2 extra combats a day. Overall that would be much more useful for a normal campaign I would think.

If you switch to mithril full plate then you will get an extra point of AC and touch AC as well. The reduced armor check penalties would come in handy in a normal game also. I know that my last character with full plate was unable to participate in several battles because of an inability to climb or get across narrow bridges and the like.

...
Thinking about it more if you went straight ranger 6, grabbed the twf chain, gave yourself a 13 (or 14) dex and picked up rapid shot you actually might be in a better situation overall for a game. You would not have the rage and you would be down to a chain shirt or mithril breast plate..... ok, so maybe it would not be better. It would be a thought though.

 

[ainbimagh]

Yes brutal throw is a very powerful feat.

But no, your build is not the best example of its use.

 

[shilsen]

Simple. Just house rule that Brutal Throw has a prerequisite of giant type and is only usable with boulders.

I'm fairly sure that feat was created just so one could actually have giants hurling boulders that were a threat, as opposed to the MM situation, where PCs smile when a giant picks up a boulder and only get worried when he picks up a melee weapon.

 

[Boondoggle]

treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

That brings your attacks to +12 when raging (1/day) and +10 normally. And only if your foe isn't blocked by or in combat with anyone else.

The sacrifices you made for TWF aren't worth the single extra attack that deals less damage. Drop your dex by 1, boost your wis by 2, pick up a shield and take precise shot. Now, most of your attacks will be at +16/+16/+9 rather than +8/+8/+8/+3 (most thrown weapon targets are already in melee).

The places where brutal throw is scary is when something has a huge strength and terrible dex.

 

[Christian]

Your counter-argument might be that it specifies melee weapons, here. Yet a spear is a melee weapon, even if it's got a range increment. It doesn't say anything about making melee/ranged attacks, just using a two-handed melee weapon.

See 'Thrown Weapons', PHB pg. 113. Throwing a two-handed weapon requires only one hand, but it's a full-round action, so no iterative attacks would be available, even with Quick Draw ...

 

[KarinsDad]

Javelins are not light weapons any more than Spears are.

So with TWF, the current iteration of the character with javelins would be at -4 for TWF.

 

[KarinsDad]

See 'Thrown Weapons', PHB pg. 113. Throwing a two-handed weapon requires only one hand, but it's a full-round action, so no iterative attacks would be available, even with Quick Draw ...

Debatable.

You'll note that this sentence in the PHB is hidden within a paragraph solely discussing throwing weapons not designed to be thrown. A Spear is designed to be thrown.

It is possible to throw a weapon that isn’t designed to be thrown (that is, a melee weapon that doesn’t have a numeric entry in the Range Increment column on Table: Weapons), but a character who does so takes a -4 penalty on the attack roll. Throwing a light or one-handed weapon is a standard action, while throwing a two-handed weapon is a full-round action. Regardless of the type of weapon, such an attack scores a threat only on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. Such a weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

Everything in this paragraph appears to be discussing throwing weapons not designed to be thrown, hence, it appears that a full round action does not apply to spears, just like a 10 foot range increment does not apply to spears, nor does double damage on a critical hit, not does a -4 penalty to hit.

Note: In the SRD, this is not in a separate paragraph. In the PHB, it is.

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

I ran a Living Greyhawk table for a PC that had brutal throw, quickdraw, and a massive quiver of javalins. That was the first time I saw it in play and it seemed... nifty but nothing game-breaking, at least for PCs.

The sample optimized 7th level stats:
+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+9)/+14 (1d6+5)/+9 (1d6+9)

That's an average of 12.5 points of damage per hit on the first two attacks 8.5 on the third attack, and another 12.5 on the last attack for a total of 46 damage if all hit (on average)

Don't loot too out of whack when compared to a sample semi-optimized 7th level archer:

Wood Elf Fighter 4/Ranger 2/Barbarian 1 28 point buy
Str 20 (22 with gauntlets), Dex 18, Con 12, Int 6, Wis 8, Cha 8
Feats: 1: Point Blank Shot, Rgr 2: Rapid Shot, Ftr 1: Precise Shot, Lvl 3: EWP: Greatbow, Ftr 2: WF: Greatbow, Lvl 6 Extra Rage, Ftr 4: WS: Greatbow

Combat Gear: Gauntlets of Ogre strength (4000gp), +1 flaming Mighty [+8] composite greatbow (around 9112), Cloak of Protection +2 (4000 gp), +1 chain shirt (1250 gp), 2 Quaals feather token whip, 2 Spiked gauntlets, masterwork cold iron greatsword (400gp).

Attack (when raging): +14 [+7 BAB, +4 dex, +1 weapon, +1 Weapon Focus] or +15 when within the same range as the brutal thrower for 1d10+11+1d6 (fire) or 1d10+12+1d6 fire when point blank shot kicks in.

Full Attack at the same range: +13/+13/+8 for 1d10+12+1d6 or an average of 21 points per hit. That's an average of 63 points of damage if all of them hit--a big enough difference, that, even reducing it by 5% to reflect his reduced attack bonuses, it still blows the javalin thrower out of the water.

And the normal archer has several advantages:
1. He beats DR/magic with every attack and can easily carry around special material arrows to beat other kinds of DR for more than a couple attacks. (And he gets to use hit full magical bonus with those other attacks).
2. He has a range increment that lets him do most of that damage at long distance whenever the situation calls for it.
3. He has the ability to do this for multiple rounds without degrading in his ability.

Answering objections:
1. Comparing a flaming bow to +1 javalins is apples and oranges.
A. No it isn't. This character spent roughly the same amount on that one bow as the javalineer spent on his two +1 javalins and his javalins of lightning. As the characters get higher in level, the difference will only be magnified. Two +1 flaming javalins will cost the javalineer nearly as much as a +1 flaming shock or +1 holy bow will cost the archer. The bow adds to every attack. The flaming javalins only work on the first two attacks.

2. But the half-orc is more capable in melee.
A. Not much more capable. Sure, he has Power Attack and Quickdraw to let him be effective in close, but the archer still has full BAB and can afford a masterwork greatsword as well. With a high strength, he's still pretty good. Defensively, the archer's chain shirt +1 is just as good as the half-orc's fullplate.

3. Using rage to power a high strength bow--that's cheesy. This is a silly creation not a real D&D archer.
A 1. And the throwing character is supposed to be a real D&D character? The point was to demonstrate that PC thrower cheese is no worse than PC archer cheese already is--in fact, it is weaker.
A 2. OK, so drop the barbarian class, add third level of ranger, and swap Extra Rage Woodland Archer, Power Attack, or Quickdraw. The archer still does 57 points of damage on a full round of hits compared to 42 points of damage for the thrower. And, even if you only count the full attack bonus attacks, the archer is still ahead with 38 points of damage to the thrower's 36.5

4. Yeah, and what's this greatbow stuff? Take your Complete Warrior weapons out of the picture.
A. OK, if you drop it to a composite longbow and drop the rage, the thrower pull slightly ahead when only highest attack bonus attacks are considered--36.5 is better than 35. However, he's still behind if everything hits (54 to 42 for the archer). Doing so also gives the archer another free feat to have (for instance) Woodland Archer and Power attack, thus drawing pretty much even with the half-orc in melee ability.

5. But why is this comparison at 7th level huh? It doesn't hold true at other levels, does it?
A. It's at 7th level because that's where the OP's example character is.
B. At lower levels, the OP's character doesn't work the same way. He loses strength and loses attacks (since he can't have Rapid Shot and TWF and Brutal Throw without being the level he is and can't have the half-orc paragon strength increase without giving up fighter feats). The archer, on the other hand, works just fine from 3rd level on. He works fine from 2nd level on if you decide to go for single classed fighter instead of fighter/ranger, and from 1st level if you sacrifice the strength and dex to play a human (who will still, I might add, do similar average damage per full attack).

At higher levels, the difference between being able to purchase one good bow vis a vis having to purchase many javalins will become even greater. If a +1 flaming bow is better than a pair (or even four) +1 javalins, a +1 holy bow is even more noticably superior to a pair of +1 flaming javalins and a +1 flaming holy bow is far superior to 4 +1 flaming javalins or even two +1 holy javalins.