Buck Rogers XXVc wasn't that bad a game.

[darjr]

Ah. Thanks for the clarification on sf vs br.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

That meme was the generally consensus at the time and still floats around on SF messageboards and listservs. The general theory was that Lorraine Williams did it to garner tons of royalties from the sale of XXVc and that the Cyborg Rules from Gamma World: Epsilon Cyborgs and the Powered Armor from Dragon 129 "Armored and Dangerous" were supposed to be in Zebulon's Guide vol. 2.

 

[JohnRTroy]

What's even more perplexing about any Cyborg rules--don't have the Gamma World book in question--but at one time TSR was going to release a game called "Proton Fire", which was all about Robots, Psiborgs or Psybots, Andriods, etc. Eventually, it was decided that instead of its own game it would be an expansion to Star Frontiers. But AFAIK, it never game out.

 

[jdrakeh]

That meme was the generally consensus at the time and still floats around on SF messageboards and listservs. The general theory was that Lorraine Williams did it to garner tons of royalties from the sale of XXVc and that the Cyborg Rules from Gamma World: Epsilon Cyborgs and the Powered Armor from Dragon 129 "Armored and Dangerous" were supposed to be in Zebulon's Guide vol. 2.

Well, she probably did publish XXVc in part because she owned the property and didn't have to license it (or, rather, because the Dille Family Trust owned the property). That's actually pretty smart, from a business standpoint.

That said, Star Frontiers was still dormant for at least three years before any XXVc product was released and five years before any XXVc RPG product was published. The idea that XXVc killed Star Frontiers isn't very credible.

Of course, we're talking about fan conspiracy theories here. Same said conspiracy theories often try to lay all of the blame for TSR's failure at the feet of Williams, while people who worked there during the Blume reign indicate management at that time also spent very wrecklessly.

The Blumes had forced me to accept three "outside" directors on the board. These three petty businessmen, two executives and a lawyer, were absolutely ignorant of the gaming business, and under their direction, and with the Blumes leading the way, TSR had accumulated $1.5 million debt that they couldn't figure out how to pay. Amongst their ideas were the dropping of the RPGA and the sale of DRAGON Magazine. After some thought, I presented a long letter to the entire board, outlining the mismanagement of TSR by Kevin Blume, and demanding his resignation and replacement. The board voted four to two, the Blumes abstaining, to remove Kevin and put in place a pro-tem president, one Richard Koenigs. Some 90 relatives of the Blumes were removed from the payroll, various corporate owned and leased cars, scores of them, were gotten rid of, unused system office furniture owned and leased was likewise sold or returned, and two major releases were rushed into print - Unearthed Arcana and Oriental Adventures (both 1985).

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Actually, I checked Amazon.com for the product history (not complete) since I'm at work and can't check my library:

1982
Alpha Dawn Boxed Set (I saw a date of 1980, but I double checked it on WorldCat [working in a library can be cool])
Volturnus Planet of Mystery
Starspawn of Volturnus

1983
Knight Hawks
Referee's Screen
Warriors of White Light
Player Characters (minis)

1984
Dramune Run
Face of the Enemy
Sundown on StarMist
Mutiny on the Eleanor Moraes
2001 A Space Odyssey
2010 Odyssey 2
Character Record Sheets
Mission to Alcazzar
Twelve Spacefarers (minis)
Robots (minis)

1985
Dark Side of the Moon
Bugs in the System
Warmachine
Zebulon's Guide to Frontier space

1987
Six Sathar Ships (minis)
Privateers (minis)

So the product line ended in 1987, not 1985

 

[jdrakeh]

1987
Six Sathar Ships (minis)
Privateers (minis)

So the product line ended in 1987, not 1985

It's interesting that both of those products are listed as softcover books by Random House Publishing on Amazon, not as actual miniatures (the term "miniatures" appears only in the title of the book on amazon). That makes me question the accuracy of those entries.

Even if they are accurate, I still think the assertions that XXVc killed Star Frontiers (or that Star Frontiers was some kind of unstoppable Sci-Fi giant at the time of its demise) are largely unfounded. It just sounds like another attempt to demonize Lorraine Williams, to me.*

*Hardly suprising though, as many fans would have people believe that she was responsible for all of the problems that TSR has ever had, prior to or after her tenure.

 

[Xyxox]

It's interesting that both of those products are listed as softcover books by Random House Publishing on Amazon, not as actual miniatures (the term "miniatures" appears only in the title of the book on amazon). That makes me question the accuracy of those entries.

Even if they are accurate, I still think the assertions that XXVc killed Star Frontiers (or that Star Frontiers was some kind of unstoppable Sci-Fi giant at the time of its demise) are largely unfounded. It just sounds like another attempt to demonize Lorraine Williams, to me.*

*Hardly suprising though, as many fans would have people believe that she was responsible for all of the problems that TSR has ever had, prior to or after her tenure.

I have to agree with this assessment. Williams made a lot of bad business decisions, as did her predecessors, but BR XXVc was not the cause of the demise of Star Frontiers, nerd rage aside.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Well, looking at the publishing history, probably 1984 did more to hurt Star Frontiers with too many books coming out. Both the Alpha Dawn boxed set and the D&D basic set were being sold at Wal-Mart at the time (but it wasn't the giant it is now), and when Wal-Mart pulled D&D because of the religious scare they also pulled Star Frontiers just in case. And as much as people like Zeb's Guide, a redo of the system without a total relaunch of the boxed set probably didn't help things. And there is a years gap between the last of the books and the last of the minis (though I couldn't find the publication date of the Federation {UPF} ships, I used to have a .pdf of the book) so it could very well have been at the end of its product cycle. But all the ship minis came with a soft cover book with Knight Hawks game stats and thats probably what is referred to on Amazon.

 

[Erik Mona]

What's even more perplexing about any Cyborg rules--don't have the Gamma World book in question--but at one time TSR was going to release a game called "Proton Fire", which was all about Robots, Psiborgs or Psybots, Andriods, etc. Eventually, it was decided that instead of its own game it would be an expansion to Star Frontiers. But AFAIK, it never game out.

Interesting. I'd never heard of that before.

Any connection to what became Cyborg Commando? That sounds kind of similar in concept.

--Erik

 

[Tetsubo]

I thought it was a fun game. I've given it a reread ot two over the years and it always makes me smile.

I think the new Savage Worlds setting Slipstream might make a good Buck Rogers game.