Buckler and Triple Dagger?

[reichtfeld]

I am trying to min/max a future duelist and have a question about bucklers+defending weapons and the triple dagger from Sword & Fist. Perhaps the mechanics for the item are changed in the new A&EG or better explained, but here goes.

When dual wielding a weapon with the defending property in your offhand can you also gain the AC bonus from a buckler if you forego making any actual attacks? Example: Bob the duelist is dual wielding a rapier, a +1 defending dagger, and also wearing a buckler on the same arm holding the dagger. The FAQ makes it clear you have to take an attack action to gain the benefit of a defending weapon but that you can opt to forego any actual attacks you're entitled to. If you don't actually make any attacks with the dagger can you also use your buckler's AC bonus? This has been bugging me.

The triple dagger can be used in the offhand like a shield, incurring no penalty for fighting with two weapons and providing a +3 bonus to any disarm attempts made with the primary weapon. Can a triple dagger be used in this fashion while also using a buckler and gaining its AC? I'm inclined to say yes.

Second, the triple dagger can also be used as a normal dagger either one-handed or using TWF with all of the associated penalties. Does a triple dagger provide the +3 bonus to disarm when being used with TWF? Does it provide the bonus to the primary weapon or only to the dagger itself?

The reason I ask is because I'm interested in having a magical triple dagger with the defending property and dumping its enhancement bonus to AC. But if the triple dagger doesn't add the +3 to disarm when being used as a weapon like this then there isn't a point to using it over a generic dagger. The -4 to attack for skipping the EWP (triple dagger) makes no difference since I wouldn't be using the offhand attacks because of the duelist precise strike. Of course all this is moot if the bonus from a defending weapon can't stack with a buckler.

 

[Hypersmurf]

The triple dagger can be used in the offhand like a shield, incurring no penalty for fighting with two weapons and providing a +3 bonus to any disarm attempts made with the primary weapon. Can a triple dagger be used in this fashion while also using a buckler and gaining its AC? I'm inclined to say yes.

I'd say yes, given that you suffer no TWF penalties.

Second, the triple dagger can also be used as a normal dagger either one-handed or using TWF with all of the associated penalties. Does a triple dagger provide the +3 bonus to disarm when being used with TWF? Does it provide the bonus to the primary weapon or only to the dagger itself?

No - you either use it as a disarming aid, or as a "normal dagger", and normal daggers don't give the disarm bonus. The bonus is applied to the disarm roll you make with your primary weapon.

But if the triple dagger doesn't add the +3 to disarm when being used as a weapon like this then there isn't a point to using it over a generic dagger.

Pretty much. You can't get the Defending bonus unless you're taking the TWF penalties, and you can't get the Disarm bonus if you're getting the Defending bonus.

The FAQ makes it clear you have to take an attack action to gain the benefit of a defending weapon but that you can opt to forego any actual attacks you're entitled to. If you don't actually make any attacks with the dagger can you also use your buckler's AC bonus? This has been bugging me.

I'd say if you're using the Defending bonus, you're using the dagger as a weapon, regardless of whether you're actually hitting someone with it... therefore no buckler AC.

-Hyp.

 

[reichtfeld]

What about using a defending weapon along with a buckler? Granted that you aren't making any actual attacks with the defending weapon, but using the attack action.

I'd probably agree with the stuff about the triple dagger, but what if you are taking the attack action with it but not making any actual attacks? Do you still lose the +3 to disarm? I'm guessing yes, but it seems worth asking.

 

[Hypersmurf]

What about using a defending weapon along with a buckler? Granted that you aren't making any actual attacks with the defending weapon, but using the attack action.

"If you use the weapon in your off-hand, you lose the buckler's AC bonus for the rest of the round." Not attack - 'use'. Getting the Defending bonuse requires that you use it, regardless of whether you actually swing.

I'd probably agree with the stuff about the triple dagger, but what if you are taking the attack action with it but not making any actual attacks? Do you still lose the +3 to disarm? I'm guessing yes, but it seems worth asking.

Yup. To take the attack action, you have to use it as a dagger. Regardless of whether you actually swing.

-Hyp.

 

[reichtfeld]

Ah well, no stacking buckler and defending dagger bonuses. Now I need to figure out what to do with some feats. Which would you prefer, using a magical buckler or a defending dagger? The bonus to buckler is that it's so much cheaper and the bonus for dagger is that it can be used for defense and/or offense, plus qualifying for use of twin sword style and off-hand parry for extra AC. Perhaps there are feats that would be even better to take without having to spring the money for a dagger to get twin sword and off-hand parry? I was thinking of improved trip and knock-down, but by the time I get those the odds of winning a trip check are real dicey with such a low strength and the CR of opponents.

Human
1) Urban Ranger (1): Weapon Finesse (rapier), Dodge, Shadow, [Virtual] Ambidextrity, [Virtual] Two-Weapon Fighting
2) Fighter (1): Mobility, Expertise
3) Fighter (2): Agile Riposte, Improved Disarm
4) Fighter (3):
5) Fighter (4): Combat Reflexes
6) Gladiator (1): Improved Feint, Expert Tactician
7) Duelist (1): Canny dodge
8) Duelist (2): Precise Strike +1d6
9) Duelist (3): Enhanced Mobility, Spring Attack
10) Duelist (4): Grace
11) Duelist (5): Acrobatic Attack
12) Duelist (6): Precise Strike +2d6, Improved Critical (rapier)
13) Duelist (7): Elaborate Parry
14) Duelist (8): Improved Reflexes
15) Duelist (9): Deflect Arrows, ???
16) Duelist (10): Precise Strike +3d6
17) Fighter (6):
18) Fighter (7): ???
19) Fighter (8): ???
20) Gladiator (2): Study Opponent +1

Currently level 4 with a magical rapier and masterwork buckler, so feats and equipment to pursue are still wide open. ??? signifies an open slot for a feat that I haven't decided on yet. I know some would suggest improved initiative to try and squeeze more out of expert tactician, but I'm sure that there are other feats that would be worth more; improved feint is what will get my money's worth with expert tactician.

Note: Anyone nitpicking might notice a discrepency in qualifying for Gladiator. My DM agreed to use the customized fighter on p. 94 of the PHB, trading Innuendo for Tumble as a class skill.

Note: Agile Riposte is from a Dragon issue. It lets you make an attack of opportunity against your Dodge opponent if they miss you with a melee attack. It can only be used once a round.

 

[Janos Antero]

Note to your earlier post, you can actually gain a shield bonus and defending bonus both from a shield, but it isn't easy.

Shield + whatever, with a spike with defending on it.

Shield Expert feat.

You'll take TWF penalties in doing this, but you effectively gain both the defending bonus and the shield bonus at once. Of course you're probably better off just putting the gold into a higher shield bonus to begin with, unless you really fancy having a spiked shield as an off hand weapon to use.

As for other duelist feats that give nice bonuses, take a look at Dragon 301, which has a ton of very effective and fairly powerful dueling feats to improve your sword and dagger style.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Shield + whatever, with a spike with defending on it.

Spike isn't necessary - a shield is a martial bludgeoning weapon.

-Hyp.

 

[Janos Antero]

Doh, true enough, I forgot that. Hey it's late!

 

[reichtfeld]

Ok. Twin Sword Style wouldn't work using a shield, naturally, but could you qualify for Off-hand Parry's AC bonus by using a shield since it is technically a martial bludgeoning weapon? Granted you take the TWF penalty and have Shield Expert. This opens up entirely new realms of cheese. +5 (armor enhancement) +5 (weapon enhancement) shield of defending. The tactic can't be used with a buckler since it can't bash, so that means using a shield and complicating the use of weapon finesse. A darkwood shield has 0 AC penalty and presents a loophole around that. Or mithril in the case of metal. Huzzah! I think Off-Hand Parry and Shield Expert earn a place onto the build in that case. I'll be sure to check out Dragon 301 as well. Much thanks.

 

[diaglo]

Human
1) Urban Ranger (1): Weapon Finesse (rapier), Dodge, Shadow, [Virtual] Ambidextrity, [Virtual] Two-Weapon Fighting
2) Fighter (1): Mobility, Expertise

Dave,

what are the stats for this character?

expertise req is Int 13+
mobility req is Dex 13+

and you are going the way of the expert tactician so i'm guessing str is not very high? but int and dex are?