D&D (2024) Buffing Int, Wis, and Cha (Mostly Int and Cha)

[Krachek]

I feel like Str and Dex come with their own penalties for dumping them. Sure, heavy armor characters can have high AC with a low Dex, but they still feel that bad initiative and bad Dex saves (I felt this constantly with my dwarf life cleric). Low Str is felt in my games because I used the variant encumbrance (and BG3 made me hate having an 8 Str because of jump distances).

I do want to stealth Nerf Con, though. I've talked about it in other threads. I'm considering switching to max HP per HD and removing Con mod to HP per level, and adding Con score HP at level 1. This handles level 1 survivability issues, boosts warrior HP, and makes Con feel less important (it would still boosts HD healing, just not max HP).

Sometime I think that those dump stat would not be a concern if 8 was having a 0 bonus
-1 on initiative, or wis saves is bad, but not not that much compare to a 0 or even +1 bonus.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Sometime I think that those dump stat would not be a concern if 8 was having a 0 bonus

If anything, if we wanted to discourage dump stats, then the penalty would need to go up...
'are you sure about that 8? You'll have -2 just to save 2 point-buy points' kind of a deal.

 

[FrogReaver]

Rogue's only way of boosting sneak attack is by getting more attacks in off-turn, which is a step harder to do than Fighter just existing.

I don’t have book in front of me. I thought off turn sneak attack was eliminated in 2024?

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I don’t have book in front of me. I thought off turn sneak attack was eliminated in 2024?

Only in A playtest, then they hurriedly put it back.

 

[FrogReaver]

I miss Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma having functions outside of their skills and saves (and magic for casters). In 3E, Int gave extra skill points and languages. This kept it from being dumped to the floor, or at least made you feel it if your character idea came with an 8 Int; I know I only considered it for Barbarians, because they got 4 skill points per level so I felt okay losing one.

Wisdom is always painful to dump because Perception is useful for everyone and Wisdom saves are important.

Charisma is always easy to dump because it just has its skills and rare Charisma saves.

So, what could be added to Intelligence and Charisma to make them feel less easy to dump and more beneficial to boost?

What if Intelligence offered extra languages or tool proficiencies? Current characters get 2 languages in 2024. Instead it could be Common +1 language, with additional languages or tools per Int mod. Int could also decrease the time needed to learn new languages or tools (but I haven't seen that rule in the 2024 phb).

Wisdom is probably fine. Perception and Wisdom saves are important for everyone. Passive Perception is like a feature.

Charisma is tougher. In older editions, Charisma had a reaction bonus, or it was used for determining NPC reactions upon meeting them. Charisma could be for Hero Points or Inspiration (charismatic characters in fiction are often lucky or confident). Charisma could be for NPC contacts, showing that you make friends where you go. It could also be for a Reputation/Fame/Infamy feature.

What do you think?

Buffing int,Wis,cha is just an implicit caster buff, because they the only ones main stating them outside a few niche builds that can attack with cha or such.

 

[FrogReaver]

(and outside of combat, Fighters can beat them at any skill, and Barbarians at their selection of skills)

That seems a bit misleading. At best fighters are using resources to do so. Rogues get a ton of skill proficiencies and a ton of expertise and reliable talent early now.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

That seems a bit misleading. At best fighters are using resources to do so. Rogues get a ton of skill proficiencies and a ton of expertise and reliable talent early now.

This is the bit I'm the most curious to see play out in action. Fighter doesn't need to spend resources until they see it's a failure. And he has multiple Second Winds, which come back with short rests.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

So, Rogue is in the unique position that, as most of their damage can be carried on just one attack, they can attack with...

Str (only helps grapple and jumping, would need at least medium armor from somewhere)
Dex (good for everything)
Int (True Strike seems valid, opens up Keen Mind / Observant as fun niche options if the GM runs things that way)
Wis (no Finesse Clubs to Shillelagh, but sling + Magic Stone is a ranged weapon)
Cha (requires Warlock1, Blade Pact keeps TWF as an option but the other weapon wouldn't use Cha...)

I wish there was a niche for a Str Rogue, a Thug... Even grapple (to Thief manacles/rope on them) isn't worth it, because there's no way to raise the grapple DC to make it reliable, and there's no way to get a sneak attack off if you spend your one attack to grapple (well, monk1 would let you, but then you can use Dex anyway).

 

[FrogReaver]

So, Rogue can attack with...
Str (only helps grapple and jumping, would need at least medium armor from somewhere)
Dex (good for everything)
Int (True Strike seems valid, opens up Keen Mind / Observant as fun niche options if the GM runs things that way)
Wis (no Finesse Clubs to Shillelagh, but sling + Magic Stone is a ranged weapon)
Cha (requires Warlock1, Blade Pact keeps TWF as an option but the other weapon wouldn't use Cha soooooo)

I wish there was a niche for a Str Rogue, a Thug... Even grapple (to Thief manacles/rope on them) isn't worth it, because there's no way to raise the grapple DC to make it reliable, and there's no way to get a sneak attack off if you spend your one attack to grapple (well, monk1 would let you, but then you can use Dex anyway).

Technically he can pick up true strike with magic initiate origin feat and make it use whatever mental stat he wants?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

The stats that need help are Strength and Intelligence. Str is completely overshadowed by Dex for combat, and Intelligence just doesnt do very much. Both Str and Int are kind of useless as saves as well.

I've added a "mighty leap" BG style which lets you jump a number of squares equal to your Strength bonus as a bonus action, and Int gives a number of additional languages and tool proficiencies equal to your bonus. It's not much, but its something.