D&D (2024) Buffing Int, Wis, and Cha (Mostly Int and Cha)

[UngeheuerLich]

I wouldn't go that far, because it's the same Rogue as in 2014, except Nick/Vex makes them land their sneak attack more reliably (and Thief can get absolutely busted if they have access to certain magic items).

So it'll still fall behind in damage (even more if you use Cunning Strikes), unless you build around getting Sneak Attacks off-turn (which is often more of a group effort). And (outside of Thief potentially) they still have no resources to nova with...

(and outside of combat, Fighters can beat them at any skill, and Barbarians at their selection of skills)

Watch the treantmonk video.

 

[Merlecory]

I have a suggestion or two for making INT better, and then some more broad ideas.

For INT: I think Perception should have some of its responsibilities moved to Investigation. I think a decent number of tables were using Investigation as something more like 3.X's Search skill, and not the sort of metagamey "solve this puzzle for me" skill.

For STR: I would like to look at buffing STR a little bit, both defensively and offensively. As was mentioned earlier, Strength based AC caps at only 1 higher (magic items not withstanding). I would propose that sheilds offer greater benefits to those with higher strengths, probably a flat +1 AC if Strenght is at least 15, and another +1 if at least 19. Weaker holders are less able to brace and keep the sheild between them and the attack, and it gives a stronger niche for sword and board type play.

I also think 2-handed weapons should get something like 1.5 X STR mod added to their damage, rather than the normal 1X. Strength might be a bit of a specialization stat, offering either higher damage output, or higher AC than DEX, but not necessarily both.



Final observation: I think having each stat give a meaningfull buff at 11-13ish, then weaker buffs (if any) higher on is ideal. I would like scores to matter for more than just the modifier associated (so odd numbers have a reason to exist) with them, and this would be one way to do this. Being stpnger in the lower range, then having diminishing returns makes some investment more likely to happen, but doesn't needlessly reward good main stat synergies.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I’ve not looked at high levels as closely but rogue and monk damage seems pretty low at level 5.

Don't think so.

A hand crossbow rogue does 5d6+8 damage per round reliably at level 5 with no big investment. That seems ok to me if the benchmark is two eldritch blast + hex for 2d10+2d6+8. It is actually nearly identical. With reliable advantage counted in, the rogu's damage is probably slightly higher, although in some cases they need to use steady aim in round one so maybe it goes bacl to being equal.

The question is, if the rogue has enough other things to make up for the fact that they are no full* caster.
I think that expertise and uncanny dodge and cunning action might make up quite a bit. And that cunning strikes at that level only cost 1d6 damage while the warlock the warlock might need to drop hex for a different spell which reduces damage by 2d6 and then needs to use their second spell to reapply hex again.

*I think full caster is very generous towards warlocks. At low level I see them as 2/3 or 3/4 caster as they are so limited in slots.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Watch the treantmonk video.

Which Treantmonk video?

 

[CreamCloud0]

Rules As Written, Strength is a critical stat for everyone and not overshadowed by Dex at all. In practice is becomes terrible because few tables play with Encumbrance. If you want Strength to matter, just enforce Encumbrance rules

i do agree that encumberance ought be applied as standard to make STR more valuable, though i also think before that happens it needs to be refined into a more simplistic representation than what it currently is because as is it's just too fiddly to implement easily and high complexity that is easily sidelined is what causes people to ditch it so much.

 

[FrogReaver]

Don't think so.

A hand crossbow rogue does 5d6+8 damage per round reliably at level 5 with no big investment. That seems ok to me if the benchmark is two eldritch blast + hex for 2d10+2d6+8. It is actually nearly identical. With reliable advantage counted in, the rogu's damage is probably slightly higher, although in some cases they need to use steady aim in round one so maybe it goes bacl to being equal.

The question is, if the rogue has enough other things to make up for the fact that they are no full* caster.
I think that expertise and uncanny dodge and cunning action might make up quite a bit. And that cunning strikes at that level only cost 1d6 damage while the warlock the warlock might need to drop hex for a different spell which reduces damage by 2d6 and then needs to use their second spell to reapply hex again.

*I think full caster is very generous towards warlocks. At low level I see them as 2/3 or 3/4 caster as they are so limited in slots.

EB and hex won’t be the 2024 benchmark. It’s low too.

A simple example. Take a zealot barbarian. Start with 17 str and a great sword. Rage, reckless attack, take the great weapon master feat.

At level 5 that 7+4+3+2 = 16 damage per attack. Assuming 60% base accuracy that’s 84% chance to hit with reckless attack.

26.88 DPR.

However, we still have to account for graze and subclass. Graze adds .16*2*4 = +1.28 DPR

Zealot Subclass adds 5.5 (1-.16.16) = +5.36 DPR

Total DPR = 33.5.

But wait there’s more! Barbarian can get bonus action attacks on crit or kill from GWM. Probably adds 2-3 more DPR, but I don’t think I need to calc it.

Rangers are going to approach similar. Fighters will probably be a bit lower but can Nova harder.

EB and hex isn’t a good 2024 benchmark. Things have changed.

The rogue you described is sitting at about 20 DPR. Estimated vex as upping accuracy to 70% from base 60%. That’s a huge difference.

 

[ezo]

What do you think?

We've done INT mod grants:

• extra languages OR
• INT-based skills only (Arcane, History, Investigation, Nature, Religion) proficiency OR
• a tool proficiency.

INT, along with WIS, can also be used for Initiative.

CHA we haven't done much with due to it being the most used spellcasting ability, having a good number of related skills, and some pretty important saves.

If you want Strength to matter, just enforce Encumbrance rules

The variant rules, yes. The main 15 x STR mod rules are oversimplified garbage that you don't even need to think about.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

EB and hex won’t be the 2024 benchmark. It’s low too.

A simple example. Take a zealot barbarian. Start with 17 str and a great sword. Rage, reckless attack, take the great weapon master feat.

At level 5 that 7+4+3+2 = 16 damage per attack. Assuming 60% base accuracy that’s 84% chance to hit with reckless attack.

26.88 DPR.

However, we still have to account for graze and subclass. Graze adds .16*2*4 = +1.28 DPR

Zealot Subclass adds 5.5 (1-.16.16) = +5.36 DPR

Total DPR = 33.5.

But wait there’s more! Barbarian can get bonus action attacks on crit or kill from GWM. Probably adds 2-3 more DPR, but I don’t think I need to calc it.

Rangers are going to approach similar. Fighters will probably be a bit lower but can Nova harder.

EB and hex isn’t a good 2024 benchmark. Things have changed.

The rogue you described is sitting at about 20 DPR. Estimated vex as upping accuracy to 70% from base 60%. That’s a huge difference.

The barbarian pays for that damage with his hp. So it seems fair.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Which Treantmonk video?

The rogue damage one. Probably it is still restricted to his patreon subscribers.

 

[FrogReaver]

The barbarian pays for that damage with his hp. So it seems fair.

He doesn’t though. For the most part rage damage reduction plus advantage to be hit is close to the same dpr taken without either feature running. Assuming a 50% chance to be hit. Its identical. For typical barbarian ac values 40-60% chance to be hit is very typical.