D&D 5E Buffing monks: with simple changes.
3 simple buffs that I feel make the monk playable compared to other martial classes and still feel very monk like
1) the monks unarmored defense adds a reaction bonus to AC equal to dex mod for melee attacks similar to defensive duelist but no weapon needed. This is needed because monk have poor defense: low ac for melee, low HP, low con due to being mad, and scales so slowly. This helps the monks poor defense in early lvs and gives them an useful reaction ability that will see play unlike deflected missile, attacks of opportunity, and slow fall that hardly come into play and give a small boost to defenses while ac scales with asi. This should compensate for shield restriction that no other ac calculation has.
2) stunning strike deals an additional martial die on a save. I don’t think this is over power since its just d6 at lv 5, monk don’t get enough ki, and will apply to 2/3 of stunning strikes on average. This way it less disappointing when they pass the strong con save monsters normally have.
3) ki empower strike needs to scale +1 at lv 9
+2 at lv 12. This is needed in a class that lacks damage and is pigeon hole into unarmed fighting. The monk is self reliant. Wizard of the coast hate monks since they don’t provide support for them in the magic item and feat department it took near the end of 5e to get one and is on the weak side compare to Tasha where the I team give + to hit and damage if in weapon form; what miss apportunity to also increase unarmed fighting on a class where it lacks help and damage.
1) the monks unarmored defense adds a reaction bonus to AC equal to dex mod for melee attacks similar to defensive duelist but no weapon needed. This is needed because monk have poor defense: low ac for melee, low HP, low con due to being mad, and scales so slowly. This helps the monks poor defense in early lvs and gives them an useful reaction ability that will see play unlike deflected missile, attacks of opportunity, and slow fall that hardly come into play and give a small boost to defenses while ac scales with asi. This should compensate for shield restriction that no other ac calculation has.
2) stunning strike deals an additional martial die on a save. I don’t think this is over power since its just d6 at lv 5, monk don’t get enough ki, and will apply to 2/3 of stunning strikes on average. This way it less disappointing when they pass the strong con save monsters normally have.
3) ki empower strike needs to scale +1 at lv 9
+2 at lv 12. This is needed in a class that lacks damage and is pigeon hole into unarmed fighting. The monk is self reliant. Wizard of the coast hate monks since they don’t provide support for them in the magic item and feat department it took near the end of 5e to get one and is on the weak side compare to Tasha where the I team give + to hit and damage if in weapon form; what miss apportunity to also increase unarmed fighting on a class where it lacks help and damage.
FantasySciFi
Villager
I want to test if giving the Tough Feat at 1st level and Mobile Feat at 3rd level goes some way towards overcoming the Hitpoint disparity with other martial classes and the utterly terrible Ki pool.
(Seriously WOTC ranp up the Ki pool with levels, it's a joke)
I've seen a monk use Step of the wind ONCE in all the years I've DMed simply because the Ki pool is so low and using Ki to replicate the Rogue's ability to double dash any damned time they like is ridiculous.
I have already established a Homebrew rule that as long as their Monk character has at least 1 Ki point they can use Step of The Wind without expending any Ki points and this has helped a bit, so I'm going to play test the bonus Feats to see if it brings them close to other classes
(Seriously WOTC ranp up the Ki pool with levels, it's a joke)
I've seen a monk use Step of the wind ONCE in all the years I've DMed simply because the Ki pool is so low and using Ki to replicate the Rogue's ability to double dash any damned time they like is ridiculous.
I have already established a Homebrew rule that as long as their Monk character has at least 1 Ki point they can use Step of The Wind without expending any Ki points and this has helped a bit, so I'm going to play test the bonus Feats to see if it brings them close to other classes
TheOneGargoyle
Explorer
I'd certainly be interested in hearing how this goes.
Honestly I think it can't be solved by just boosting the number of ki points, because so long as there's any level of scarcity of ki, other things will always be higher value than SotW and the opportunity cost just won't be worth it.
I'm starting to come to the conclusion that they have to be separate resource pools (or no resource cost at all other than actions).
kapars
Adventurer
I agree that the class should move to a d10 hit die. I see the opinions that they are supposed to be skirmishing but the only way to effectively do that is by using Ki or Feat tax by taking the Mobile feat. The moment you use Ki for Step of the Wind or Patient Defense you fall far behind in terms of your damage contribution and Mobile works but limits the types of characters you can build.
If you look at the expected incoming damage on page 274 of the DMG and you apply the average to hit bonus and you compare it to where unarmored defense is in terms of progression you see that often the Monk will not be able to much incoming damage if they are present to take it and do not have Patient defense active.
A CR5 monster attacking a Level 5 monk, is doing 35.5 damage on average and hitting with a +6. A Monk that increased its Dexterity at level 4 and is using point buy or the standard array likely has 18 DEX and 17 AC (+4 from DEX and +3 from WIS) at this point in time. This means that the monster hits on 11 and up and has a 50% chance of hitting the monk. The monk likely having a 14 CON ( having to dump all abilities that make them relevant in other areas of play) on average has 38 hp at this point. This means the monster does 17.75 damage to the monk on average and the Monk can survive 2.14 CR 5 attacks. This is the average however and it is quite possible it does enough damage to knock out that 38hp Monk by doing slightly above average (7% above) damage for the round. On average we see the Monk surviving 1 or 2 CR5 attacks at most.
Compare this with a Fighter wearing a Splint Armor and a shield (the only fighter with comparable DPR contribution) that has 19 AC and gets hit on 13 and up and therefore gets hit 40% of the time. This means a monster does 14.2 damage on average to the fighter. They likely have 16 CON which yields 49 HP at this level on average and can survive 3.45 attacks from CR5 monsters before going unconscious on average. In terms of a single attack or multi-attack from a creature they would need to take 49 damage in a single turn which is 38% over average damage and far less likely.
Another point to consider is that if you are Skirmishing someone else has to be the main tank and they are now taking more hits due to not sharing the load with you. This causes the issue of your presence not filling a main party role and therefore forcing someone else to take a specific role since you do not have the skill expertise of the Rogue to fill the skills role, not the stat alignment to fill the face role and per the analysis above cannot adequately fill the tank role. This means that you need to look at damage and control roles and that's where the issues around stunning strike and the damage cliff at level 11 become very relevant.
Just this change would already change the conversation a lot but note that by itself it is not sufficient. The monk is still 2AC behind where they'd need to fill a tank role and probably 1 AC behind where they need for at least an off-tank role. This suggests the problem is both HP and AC and the way that AC is calculated since you cannot pick CON over WIS.
If you look at the expected incoming damage on page 274 of the DMG and you apply the average to hit bonus and you compare it to where unarmored defense is in terms of progression you see that often the Monk will not be able to much incoming damage if they are present to take it and do not have Patient defense active.
A CR5 monster attacking a Level 5 monk, is doing 35.5 damage on average and hitting with a +6. A Monk that increased its Dexterity at level 4 and is using point buy or the standard array likely has 18 DEX and 17 AC (+4 from DEX and +3 from WIS) at this point in time. This means that the monster hits on 11 and up and has a 50% chance of hitting the monk. The monk likely having a 14 CON ( having to dump all abilities that make them relevant in other areas of play) on average has 38 hp at this point. This means the monster does 17.75 damage to the monk on average and the Monk can survive 2.14 CR 5 attacks. This is the average however and it is quite possible it does enough damage to knock out that 38hp Monk by doing slightly above average (7% above) damage for the round. On average we see the Monk surviving 1 or 2 CR5 attacks at most.
Compare this with a Fighter wearing a Splint Armor and a shield (the only fighter with comparable DPR contribution) that has 19 AC and gets hit on 13 and up and therefore gets hit 40% of the time. This means a monster does 14.2 damage on average to the fighter. They likely have 16 CON which yields 49 HP at this level on average and can survive 3.45 attacks from CR5 monsters before going unconscious on average. In terms of a single attack or multi-attack from a creature they would need to take 49 damage in a single turn which is 38% over average damage and far less likely.
Another point to consider is that if you are Skirmishing someone else has to be the main tank and they are now taking more hits due to not sharing the load with you. This causes the issue of your presence not filling a main party role and therefore forcing someone else to take a specific role since you do not have the skill expertise of the Rogue to fill the skills role, not the stat alignment to fill the face role and per the analysis above cannot adequately fill the tank role. This means that you need to look at damage and control roles and that's where the issues around stunning strike and the damage cliff at level 11 become very relevant.
Just this change would already change the conversation a lot but note that by itself it is not sufficient. The monk is still 2AC behind where they'd need to fill a tank role and probably 1 AC behind where they need for at least an off-tank role. This suggests the problem is both HP and AC and the way that AC is calculated since you cannot pick CON over WIS.
Last edited:
jgsugden
Legend
List the classes that can force an enemy to make 4 different saving throws (or be stunned) in the same round?
The monk is fine as it is. I'd have given it an ASI at 6th in addition to the current abilities, and most of the subclasses could use a redesign, but monks are highly effective, especially at high levels, and especially when facing enemies with Legendary Resistance, etc...
The monk is fine as it is. I'd have given it an ASI at 6th in addition to the current abilities, and most of the subclasses could use a redesign, but monks are highly effective, especially at high levels, and especially when facing enemies with Legendary Resistance, etc...
Crimson Longinus
Legend
They're a one trick pony. They will burn all their ki to get the stunning strike though, and that's it. And because that one ability is so insanely good, it is a waste to use ki for anything else.
I'd nerf the stunning strike (one attempt per turn?) and buff the monk otherwise. This would encourage more varied playstyle.
Undrave
Legend
Have we gotten news from OP about implementing their suggest changes?
Highly effective at WHAT? I still have no idea what the designers intended the Monk to actually DO. What's his role in a party? What does he bring to the table? Whatever it is, it doesn't seem to survive contact with the table. Like their silly ideas that people wouldn't plan ahead for their subclasses. The Monk isn't a class, it's a pile of legacy features the designers were nostalgic for.
Exactly. Why ever use your cool subclass abilities or even try to survive with Perfect Defense if I could instead spend on friggin' Stunning Strike? And as cool as Stunning Strike is, it very rarely lands at all. All it usually does is burn through legendary resistance and that's it.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
with 1 in 3 chance on average of even getting stunning strike to work its ahem not that cool to me.
Undrave
Legend
Yup. You're either facing things that are not worth stunning, or things that WOULD be cool to stun but they have great saves, either due to stats or legendary resistance.
Maybe if I got my Ki refunded if it failed I'd be more likely to use them?
Similar Threads
