Buffy series finale (spoilers)

[S'mon]

I don't know where you're getting this 'modern weapons are ineffective' stuff from. The Judge episode wasn't the only one to demonstate otherwise. Bullets don't kill vampires, true - but I've seen a demon killed by a random pistol headshot in Angel, and a pistol bullet impact is a pretty small piece of damage. Vampires can be killed by sunlight and fire - a thermonuclear blast creates heat similar to that at the heart of the Sun, more than enough to vapourise lots of vampires, while the overpressure wave will rip apart and bury plenty more.

I quite agree they won't be affected by radiation sickness from the fallout, though.

Re the Initiative - they were (or would have been) 'defeated' by their own arrogance in accumulating lots of live test subjects in their labs, combined with the efforts of their own creation, Adam. Their tasers were apparently highly effective on all sorts of supernatural beasties.

 

[Vocenoctum]

It obviously wasn't a hopeless battle because they won. If you want to blame the writers for a crummy season and setup to the finale so for it but I see this as no different from the previous 3 times she saved the world. Every single time a wildcard saved the day.

Against Adam they used a spell that they had no idea would do anything at all. There were no assurances that she would win the day.

Against Glory she figured at the last second that she could sacrifice herself to win. That wasn't any time of plan.

Against Willow she wasn't even there at the end. Xander was the wildcard this time.

And this time it was Spike/The Amulet who was the wildcard.

Against Adam, they had a powerful spell that they thought would work.

Against Glory they had a plan involving a robot and a god hammer. (the portal opening was unprepared for, and I don't want to argue the lack of logic in the whole Summers thing again, so I'll leave it there.)

Willow wasn't really that hard, they just had to get there.

Obviously, you didn't dig the final but your facts don't add up. If you would as Jamdin said give us a better plan or a better plot go for it.We are talking about a show with vampires, werewolves, witches and a 95 pound girl who has superpowers. 30 vs. one million is hardly a stretch. There's a reason she's a hero.
If you can prove that the slayers had no effect, please so do. We don't know how the amulet was activated. It just used Spike as a vessel, there is nothing that says how it came to life.

And as for previous seasons I believe that I have already illustrated that there were wildcard factors all over the place in many of the finales, not just this one. And there hasn't been a plan everytime. Most of the time its just the Scoobies being there and doing there thing. Was this season's ending as good as say 2 & 3, nope. But it was entertaining. I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it as much as some of us did.

The problem isn't unforseen solutions or wildcards. The problem is, everything that they knew up to the point of entering the hellmouth pointed to them failing and dying.

Were they counting on ubervamps falling so easily? I'm hoping they weren't counting on Buffy's ability to be lethally stabbed and then not show the effects 5 minutes later.

Why wasn't the Slayer Spell cast before hand?

(and yes, why were the upper levels defended in three spots instead of one choke point?)

Besides, the Hellmouth was closed again. They had to reopen it. And, where was the big tentecaled monster! did the uber vamps eat it?

They showed the ep last night where Buffy kills the first Uber vamp. The girl doesn't know how to dodge at all, does she? That's why the Caleb Wirefu scene was so important, she finally figured out her quickened reflexes could be used for something other than charging ever faster at certain death!

Now if she's learned how stealth works, and scouted out the hell mouth ahead of time, that might be something. Instead, they open the gateway (letting all kinds of evil through, to be held off by Anya and Andrew...) and stand there waiting while Willow starts the spell.

I liked parts of the finale, but it really was one of the worst season finales so far. The fact that it was the series finale as well makes that worse for me.

But, the main thing for me is the plot holes. The stupid axe, the stupid amulet, the lack of any real plan by the First or The Slayers. The lack of even the most basic attempt to follow up on the plotpoints dropped haphazardly throughout the season... (Joyce, the Vulnerability to the Line, etc.)

And remember, the reason those of us complaining are doing so is because we have a large investment in the series. We've been watching it for quite a while, and have finally arrived at the end, only to be disappointed by it.

 

[TwistedBishop]

Yes, it has been more or less proven that modern technology has little effect against most of the bad guys in the Jossverse. With the one exception of The Judge everything else has to be taken down by more archaic means.

Tell that to the Mayor.

 

[John Crichton]

Tell that to the Mayor.

Okay, 2 exceptions. No big. Doesn't diminish one of the basic premises of the show being that technology isn't the main weapon against the bad guys. It is on rare occassions used, there is no debating that.

 

[John Crichton]

Against Adam, they had a powerful spell that they thought would work.

Which is exactly what they did in the Season 7 finale.

Against Glory they had a plan involving a robot and a god hammer. (the portal opening was unprepared for, and I don't want to argue the lack of logic in the whole Summers thing again, so I'll leave it there.)

I think we may be in agreement that there wasn't a whole ton of planning involved here. I always saw that whole thing as a last ditch effort to save Dawn and the world at once.

Willow wasn't really that hard, they just had to get there.

Still, no plan there. Xander wakes up, takes off and gets through to Willow. Sure, Giles made it possible but it was a huge longshot and not much of a plan on his part. And I'm pretty sure Xander knew nothing about that part of it.

I'll say it again that the last season and season 6 when taken as a whole don't compare to earlier seasons. There is no arguement there. I'm not trying to say that this finale (or S6's) was up there with the earlier stuff. I'm just saying that I enjoyed it for what it was. The buildup wasn't great but for whatever reason the payoff worked. If one would like to pick apart the episode, go for it. I just don't see the point. The episode was a bookend to the start of the series, had a cool battle, some regulars died, a few storylines were wrapped up and it was done well.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Okay, 2 exceptions. No big. Doesn't diminish one of the basic premises of the show being that technology isn't the main weapon against the bad guys. It is on rare occassions used, there is no debating that.

True, but it's not because it's not effective or anything. Thematically they wanted to minimize firearms and such. Their effectiveness was never really brought into it.

I guess my point is, just because they didn't use weapons more modern than a crossbow in general, don't assume they wouldn't have worked.

 

[Vocenoctum]

Which is exactly what they did in the Season 7 finale.

See, the difference is, Buffy & gang chasing after Willow was a spur of the moment deal. I don't really remember how much they researched the flower spell vs Adam, but it wasn't really a rush.

Against the Mayor and Glory, they had a plan, since they had the time. The portal was unexpected, but dealt with.

The series finale, they had time. They could have, and should have, cast the spell from the axe earlier. They could have scouted, they could have done anything.

They went into a situation where all expectations were to die, but they figured it would work, because Buffy pitched the suicide rush better than when she wanted to go to the cellar...

Like I said, I liked the last ep well enough, but not because of the First or anything to do with that plotline. It had witty banter, which the show has lacked for a while. It had the D&D scene, it had other stuff that reminded me of better seasons.

If the same episode had been centered around them preparing to go out to patrol, it would have had the same effect.

So, I complain, because I care!

 

[John Crichton]

See, the difference is, Buffy & gang chasing after Willow was a spur of the moment deal. I don't really remember how much they researched the flower spell vs Adam, but it wasn't really a rush.

Against the Mayor and Glory, they had a plan, since they had the time. The portal was unexpected, but dealt with.

The series finale, they had time. They could have, and should have, cast the spell from the axe earlier. They could have scouted, they could have done anything.

They went into a situation where all expectations were to die, but they figured it would work, because Buffy pitched the suicide rush better than when she wanted to go to the cellar...

Like I said, I liked the last ep well enough, but not because of the First or anything to do with that plotline. It had witty banter, which the show has lacked for a while. It had the D&D scene, it had other stuff that reminded me of better seasons.

If the same episode had been centered around them preparing to go out to patrol, it would have had the same effect.

So, I complain, because I care!

I'd like to first say that the lind you quoted was directed at the S4 finale in response to the using of a powerful spell they thought would work. Just wanted to clarify as there seemed to be some confusion.

As for doing the spell earlier or any of those things, there isn't a reason needed to justify any of them for me because they were there for dramatic flair and liked the effect. It is quite possible that Willow needed to be positioned right over the Hellmouth in order to cast the spell or any other number of plot devices, but either way to me it didn't matter and was a very minor plot point.

And the scouting thing isn't that big of a deal to me either. Perhaps Buffy didn't expect the army to be so close and was going to leave the SITs with Spike while she looked ahead. Either way the plan was FUBAR and desperate.

And we don't know that the Scoobs had time before the spell needed to be cast. I was under the impression that time was precious and they didn't have much of it before the army was going to invade.

Either way about it I believe it comes down to the build-up not being as good as past seasons. The previous shows were good but only par for Buffy. I've stated other places why I think this is so I won't get into that here. It wasn't the best finale but it was a very entertaining hour of TV. That and it left the door open for future plots which even if they never come still works for me. I like to think that the characters live on beyond the show.

 

[S'mon]

Okay, 2 exceptions. No big. Doesn't diminish one of the basic premises of the show being that technology isn't the main weapon against the bad guys. It is on rare occassions used, there is no debating that.

That it's not the main weapon used doesn't alter the fact that when it _is_ used it's shown to be an effective solution as often as any other tool. All kinds of weapons are used in different Buffy episodes, different (killing) strokes for different (monster) folks. As vampires are vulnerable to the Sun, and a nuke generates a mini-Sun, this would seem a logical way to kill them. It wouldn't kill fully incorporeal opponents like the First, of course. Getting hold of a nuke would not be easy, of course, even the Initiative might not have ready access.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

H2 (fusion) Bombs create sunlike effects, normal nukes not. And it seems as if Vampires are unaffected by artifical created light, so it might be that only the "real natural sun" can burn them...

And it is still the question if the army would have believed them - and if they did, would the bomb be there in time?

Hell, why am I talking about an episode I will see the first time in 2 or 3 months?

Mustrum Ridcully