Builder: Craft or Profession?

[taliesin15]

I'm fleshing out some NPCs in a new town and realized there's a big gap in skills there--there's not really a Craft or Profession for Builders, the people who build walls, fences, homes and castles. I'm thinking RW analogy here, folks who aren't chiefly architects, but more the contractor types driving a pickup truck and know enough to build a sound structure, yet actually get their hands dirty. I can imagine arguments both ways. Which do you think it is, Craft or Profession?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Profession (laborer), but only if you must. It doesn't require any skill ranks unless someone becomes a mason, carpenter, painter, etc.

 

[taliesin15]

The (Prof) Laborer though would be equivalent to the day laborers the contractor picks up in his truck in the morning (here in Texas, that largely consists of immigrant labor, fwiw)--these guys tend to schlep stuff around the site, dig ditches, i.e. this is largely back-breaking unskilled labor. I've done it before. The builder is way up there on the food chain, right below the architect or engineer, in fact, s/he has skills or knowledge in those areas, but is much more hands on. I'm tending to think of Builder as a Profession since it encompasses so many different skills--the contractor also hires sub-contractors (NPC Experts, in AD&D parlance) to do specialized jobs, such as masons and carpenters and roofers and plumbers (if applicable in one's milieu).

 

[Tonguez]

Craft:Builder (Mason or Carpenter) for the actual hands-on construction work
Profession:Architect/Engineer

the task of negotiating with sub-contractors comes under Diplomacy

FWIW I once had a Player who was a rl Engineer who decided to play an Engineer PC.
I was able to incorporate his skills into the adventures (fortifying walls, and exploring city sewer systems) and he eventually was made the official City Engineer...

 

[nittanytbone]

Most of those tasks (ditch-digging, bearing materials from site A to site B, etc) are simple ability score checks, I'd think. Anyone can do such tasks with no training, especially if under some supervision. Probably related to CON or STR.

Who should be better at unskilled manual labor? That charmed ogre with 21 STR and 15 CON, or a geriatric commoner with 16 Wisdom + ranks in profession, 7 STR, and 7 CON?

IMHO craft and Profession skills should only come into play only for skilled activities that any old joe couldn't just decide to start doing. For example, the old commoner up above might have ranks in profession/craft (Excavation) which would allow him to supervise a team of ditch diggers, prevent some accidents, plan out the work, etc.

 

[Infiniti2000]

The (Prof) Laborer though would be equivalent to the day laborers the contractor picks up in his truck in the morning (here in Texas, that largely consists of immigrant labor, fwiw)--these guys tend to schlep stuff around the site, dig ditches, i.e. this is largely back-breaking unskilled labor. I've done it before. The builder is way up there on the food chain, right below the architect or engineer, in fact, s/he has skills or knowledge in those areas, but is much more hands on. I'm tending to think of Builder as a Profession since it encompasses so many different skills--the contractor also hires sub-contractors (NPC Experts, in AD&D parlance) to do specialized jobs, such as masons and carpenters and roofers and plumbers (if applicable in one's milieu).

The problem I have with your view is that such a "builder" profession requires no ranks. That's why migrant workers are called unskilled laborers. They key word is unskilled, i.e. no skill ranks. If you give them a profession or craft, then suddenly they are skilled and therefore require more pay.

I don't care how many years you've dug ditches or schlepped stuff around, you'll never get any "better" at it.

 

[neoweasel]

I don't care how many years you've dug ditches or schlepped stuff around, you'll never get any "better" at it.

This is an incorrect statement.

I am better than most of my friends at moving heavy objects around, not because I'm noticeably stronger than they are (I'm not anymore) but because I had a fair amount of experience growing up in having to move stuff around. I know how to carry things so that they don't hurt my back, so that my legs are carrying the weight rather than my arms and things like that.

 

[irdeggman]

This is an incorrect statement.

I am better than most of my friends at moving heavy objects around, not because I'm noticeably stronger than they are (I'm not anymore) but because I had a fair amount of experience growing up in having to move stuff around. I know how to carry things so that they don't hurt my back, so that my legs are carrying the weight rather than my arms and things like that.

So you have the "Powerful Build" or "Stability" trait.

These are the "problems" when trying to apply Real Life or Real World issues into a fantasy game world with a "vague" skill and combat system.

 

[Storme]

"Builder" is usually a general term for a group, or company, and not an individual job title. Sometimes it refers to the architect or engineer who owns the company. Peter Guiwen is a "Builder." He's the owner of a residential construction company in Roseville, CA (and professionally, an architect and manager). The construction worker who works for a "Builder" (the company) is a skilled laborer in one or more of the following areas:

Profession (Architect) or Knowledge (Engineering/Architecture)

Crafting (Carpenter)

Crafting (Blacksmithing)

Crafting (Masonry), or Profession (Mason)

Profession (Laborer) and Profession (Supervisor).

Profession (Painter), (I see Crafting (Painter) as generally an artist).

Profession (Gardener) or Profession (Landscaper)

Profession (Driver) for shipping materials.

Then you might want Crafting (Furniture Maker) and Crafting (Locksmithing)...maybe a little Profession (Tailor) in there too. The wealthy might want to hire a Profession (Interior Decorator). Larger jobs will more than likely need a Profession (Cook), and maybe a Profession (Server).

There are many elements and more to construction. There's no one skill that combines the attributes of all of them. All this is covered, including their pay, in the Stronghold Builder's Guide.

The only thing missing in D&D are escrow officers, underwriters, brokers, appraisers, inspecters, electricians, plumbers, etc...hehe.

 

[irdeggman]

Profession (Painter), (I see Crafting (Painter) as generally an artist).

Yup - the difference between painting houses and making works of art.