Building a better bard

[Spenser]

Alrighty folks. I'm looking to create a reasonably combat-effective bard. Obviously this is in some sense a hopeless cause, but we can at least try to keep pace with our more combat-oriented brethren. Plus you never know when you're going to run into one of those sissy DMs who is into "roleplaying" and other such nonsense... if that happens, it's good to have a bard on your team.

The following restrictions apply:
1. 32 point buy.
2. Standard equipment GP value for the bard's level.
3. Keep INT high in order to take advantage of of the truly excellent bard skill list. Also keep some noncombat and utility considerations in mind when selecting spells.
4. Suggestions from the core rules highly preferred. I'm willing to see suggestions from the splatbooks, but A) I don't own very many of them, and B) my group is pretty conservative when it comes to them, anyway.
5. No heavy multiclassing. We're supposed to be a bard, here. (Well, I suppose one or two levels of another class wouldn't hurt, in theory.)

Thus I present you with... Diana. She's kind of a hybrid: she's focuses on archery, but she's got some enchantment spells with reasonably high DCs that provide an alternative route of attack. At low levels, Diana levitates and uses expeditious retreat to stay out of melee. If she has trouble hitting with her bow, she throws alchemist's fire and tanglefoot bags. She also has a few enchantment spells to use in a pinch. At higher level, Diana does reasonable damage with her archery, especially at close range against evil opponents. She uses GMW to ensure that her quiver of +5 arrows is well stocked, and she makes liberal use of haste and improved invisibility. Her base DC for enchantment spells is 19+ spell level, and when casting spells she gains the benefit of her buckler.

Suggestions for improving her? Go all archery? Focus more on enchantment? Make her more of a meleer? I'm open to ideas both large and small.

Diana, female human Brd5
HD 4d6+16; hp 30; Init +2; Spd 30 ft; AC 18 (+6 chain shirt, +2 Dex); Range: composite longbow +8 or +6/+6 (1d8+3/crit x3); SQ bardic music;
SV Fort +4, Ref +7, Will +5; Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +11, Diplomacy +11, Hide +10, Listen +8, Move Silently +10, Perform +11, Tumble +10; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot.
Bard Spells Known (cast 3/4/2): 0–daze, detect magic, ghost sound, light, prestidigitation, read magic; 1–charm person, cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, protection from evil; 2–glitterdust, hold person, levitate, mirror image.
Equipment: +2 mithril chain shirt, +1 mighty composite longbow (+1 Str), halfspear, +1 cloak of resistance, quiver of masterwork arrows(20), misc. potions, alchemist's fire, tanglefoot bags.

Diana, female human Brd15
HD 14d6+36; hp 85; Init +4; Spd 30 ft; AC 28 (+9 chain shirt, +2 ring of protection, +2 natural armor, +4 Dex, +1 dodge); Range: composite longbow +27/+22/+17 or +25/+25/+20/+15 (1d8+2D6+14/crit x3); SQ bardic music;
SV Fort +9, Ref +13, Will +9; Str 16, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 24.
Skills and Feats: Bluff +25, Diplomacy +25, Hide +22, Listen +18, Move Silently +22, Perform +25, Tumble +22; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Great Fortitude, Spell Focus: Enchantment, WF: composite longbow, Dodge
Bard Spells Known (cast 4/6/5/4/4/3): 0–daze, detect magic, ghost sound, light, prestidigitation, read magic; 1–charm person, cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, protection from evil; 2–glitterdust, hold person, levitate, mirror image; 3-cure serious wounds, emotion, greater magic weapon, haste; 4-break enchantment, hold monster, improved invisibility, modify memory; 5-contact other plane, greater dispelling, mirage arcana
Equipment: +4 holy mighty composite longbow (+3Str) (73k), +5 mithril chain shirt (26k), +3 mithril buckler (10k), +4 belt of giant strength (16k), +4 gloves of dexterity(16k), +6 cloak of charisma (36k), bracers of archery (5k), +2 ring of protection (8k), +2 amulet of natural armor (8k)

 

[Furn_Darkside]

It is not core, but written by the author of the DMG- have you considered the Monte's alternate bard? It has a handful of interesting combat possiblities- it comes from Book of Eldrich Magic 2.

FD

 

[Spenser]

Furn,

Thank you for the suggestion. I've heard of Monte's alternative bard. And his sorceror. I've even taken a look at his ranger. I don't own his Eldritch Magic books though.

I like Monte's stuff in general, but here's the thing:
- My favorite kind of products are modules and books with history, maps, etc.
- Sometimes I'll pick up new feats, magic items, spells, etc. I'm somewhat wary of adding this kind of stuff, but usually it turns out to be harmless fun.
- My least favorite thing to do is to rip out old rules and replace them with new ones. I only do that if the rule or concept is very badly broken. And I haven't given up on bards yet!

I'm just tossing out this post because I want to see what you can do with bards given only the core rules (with maybe a feat or magic item from outside the core. Maybe.) So, any ideas?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

An archery focus works for a bard. (Your low hit points aren't as much of an issue, and it's easy to get a high attack bonus as an archer). Melee is a bit more difficult for a bard to pull off. So, unless your party already has a fully focussed archer or lacks melee power, I'd stay an archer bard.

Multiclassing options: if you wanted to become a half-elf or elf, you could take Arcane Archer instead of Bard after level 10 or so.

Alternately, you could take Ftr 1/Bard 12/Spellsword 2 if you wanted to have slightly better saves and no arcane spell failure from that mithril chain shirt. You'd get a feat, +5 fort (instead of +1), +0 ref (instead of +1.5) and +3 will (instead of +1.5), spellsword channel, an average of five extra hit points, weapon proficiencies, and a few other goodies but you'd have to spend several skill ranks in a knowledge skill, and you'd give up two effective spellcasting levels. On the plus side, Spellsword has spot as a class skill so you could give yourself +10 to spot if you wanted.

Feats. Lvl 5 is pretty focussed but having dodge at level 15 is an exercise in futility. AC 29 won't be that much better than AC 28 in most instances. I'd take either Greater Spell Focus: enchantment (T&B-- +4 to enchantment DCs) or Sharpshooting (S&F--+2 to hit against targets with cover) or possibly blindfighting (since you're not a melee character this would be more to make you immune to sneak attacks from invisible rogues etc. than anything else) or improved initiative instead.

Items:
Level 5--forget the +2 mithril chain shirt and quiver of masterwork arrows. Use a normal mithril chain shirt, normal arrows (you'd burn through 20 masterwork arrows in two encounters anyway) instead. Don't buy some of the miscellaneous potions and alchemical items. And get Bracers of Archery. Every archer should have them. If you can afford it get a wand of CLW as well.

Level 15. Drop yourself down to a +4 cloak of charisma or do something so that you can afford a vest of resistance. (Dropping the quality on the charisma cloak will give you a vest of resistance +4 and 4k to spare for scrolls and wands). +13/+17/+13 is a much better set of saves than +9/+13/+9. At 15th level, you can expect to be facing spells with a minimum DC of 22. (Given spell focus and a 22 spellcasting attribute, the normal DC for an 8th level spell is 26--if you only have +9 to that, you're in a world of hurt).

Skills (lvl 15) you really don't need a +22 tumble score. +14 should suffice. That would give you a few skill points to put into languages or knowledge skills.

 

[silvertable81]

Get the Kingdoms of Kalamar Player's Guide. Your Bard doesn't really need to be effective in combat, just help the others get it done. This is Max Munch.
Grey Elf (+2INT +2CHA -2CON) buy the 18s in INT and CHA then make him sort of older (+2 mental stats, -3 physical stats.) Bard 1
Take ranks in a couple of knowledge skills presented in the book.
Know art of war allows you to study a battlefield for an hour before a battle ensues after which you make a check vs DC 20 to add +2 to either attacks or AC of your allied combattants.
Know Military tactics allows you to do the same after each round. The effects last until your allies leave the studied area!
Then take your Perform (Motivational speaking) Give him the feat from Song and Silence persistent music. After each speech your allies have 10 rounds to mop the floor with the enemy.
"We will not go blindly to the night! We have darkvision anyway, but today we declare our independance day!"
If this is done and you have a days notice (or at least "Meet me after school, I'm gonna put you in a dumpster.") you could be granting a +5 to attacks to your allies. Also, between INT and ranks you get +9 to the Knowledge checks.
Even as weak as he is, his buddies will want to protect him.
Later multi into Loremaster (It's almost built for the Bard)

I DO have waaaay too much time on my hands.

 

[Thanee]

A cleric with an instrument and some ranks in perform?
A sorcerer/virtuoso?

Well, I think an elven bard makes a pretty good archer, actually, and is more than reasonably able in combat!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Spenser]

Elder-Basilisk:

Great ideas! You are soo right about the Dodge feat. And the Tumble skill. And her saving throws being too low. Yikes! Ok, so we'll drop the cloak down to +4 and pick up a +4 vest of resistance. I'm tempted to pick Blindfighting, or maybe Greater Spell Focus (to make up for the lower charisma)... but now you've got me freaked out about the saving throws, so maybe Iron Will is the way to go.

I had considered Arcane Archer, but it seemed like one of the major benefits of that class was the free enchanted arrows, which she doesn't really need. I had also taken a look at Spellsword, and thought that it would have been a pretty heavy investment to get that 10% reduction in arcane spell failure. But I didn't notice that they get the Spot skill... wow, Spot and Listen, I like that a lot. And of course she'd be physically tougher. So hmmm... food for thought...

silvertable81:

Very interesting! I hadn't even considered the Loremaster class, but you are right, it could be a pretty good combo with the bard, particularly if we back off of archery and focus on support and spellcasting. Does the Loremaster's "lore" ability stack with the bard's bardic knowledge ability? The book doesn't say explicitly that it does, which seems like an oversight to me.

I really like your idea for Perform (Motivational Speaking). That rocks. However, in lieu of giving an inspiring speech, my particular group would most likely expect me to scream and rant about "being in a van... down by the river!" and then fall through a table before battle. And do I really want to have to start out each battle prone? Will there always be a table handy? I just don't know.

Thanee:

A cleric with an instrument and some ranks in perform?
A sorcerer/virtuoso?

(chuckle) Perhaps a fighter with Leadership and followers that play his theme music...

You are right, an elven bard would be pretty effective as an archer. I thought about that, but dropped it because I wanted the extra skill points from being a human.

Great ideas, guys! I'll try your suggestions, see how they work out.

 

[Thanee]

I thought about that, but dropped it because I wanted the extra skill points from being a human.

I can see why, really!

And the human also gets an extra feat, which puts him on par with the elf in terms of bows (at least the important ones).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Thanee]

The bard really gets better in combat at moderate to high levels, where the spells start taking over.

For Greater Magic Weapon alone it would be a good idea to plan with at least 15 levels of bard (or any prestige class that improves the spellcasting ability).

Bye
Thanee

 

[reapersaurus]

Alrighty folks. I'm looking to create a reasonably combat-effective bard.

Well, my son cost me 10 minutes of a reply.

Basically, think about going Bard/Rogue/Virtuouso if you think spells and performances define the bard, or go Bard1/Rogue3/Fighter2/LasherX if you want Bardic Performances with combat effectiveness (remember, performances are based mostly off Perform skill)