D&D 5E Building a better Paladin

[Gladius Legis]

Because the Paladin is definitely not a class that needs moar power, but smite is hardly a problematic use of slots.

Eh, it'd be +1d8 to 2 spell slots per day at most, and only at Lv. 19 and 20. An average of 9 more damage per day at those two capstone levels isn't exactly a significant display of "moar power."

It certainly doesn't *need* the cap raised to 6d8 for 5th-level slots, and it'd be a minute buff *at best*. Admittedly, it is a matter of taste, just one that bugs me.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It certainly doesn't *need* the cap raised to 6d8 for 5th-level slots... it is a matter of taste, just one that bugs me.

I certainly wouldn't mind if the paladin blew his 5th level slots just do some more damage on a smite. Hardly the most disruptive-to-the-story thing you can do with a 5th level slot.
It's just that DPR is kinda the fighter's thing, and DPR is so convenient to calculate exactly that even minuscule differences raise hackles and draw complaints.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

IMO, the role playing parts were there to help mitigate the class. You got all these powers, but the drawback is that you had to actually play your PC like an extremely devout follower, almost like a fanatical. After all, why would a deity give all these extra powers to a person unless they pushed that deity's agenda. Again, that's just my personal tastes though.

While this was pretty clearly the intention in 1E and 2E, I think it was poor game design. Roleplaying a zealot well is no more challenging than roleplaying any other character archetype well. Nobody gets rewarded (by the class system, anyway) for playing a barbarian with a tribal honor code or an consummate professional of an assassin or a wizard who is driven by curiosity to seek out dangerous secrets. Roleplaying ought to be its own reward; you ought not to be incentivized for roleplaying a certain way if you'd rather roleplay a different way.

Furthermore, an Nth-level paladin ought to be roughly equivalent to an Nth-level anything else, simply because otherwise what do these "levels" even mean? And on top of that basic definitional problem, making an Nth-level paladin more powerful than an Nth-level anything else fouls up all sorts of system math. Just imagine the Challenge Rating system if the rules acknowledged the power disparity: "A CR of 3 means this monster is an appropriate challenge for a party of four 3rd-level adventurers, or a party of four 2nd-level adventurers if one of them is a paladin..." Ew. If you want to say that paladins are granted more power than other characters by the grace of their gods, do that by granting them roleplaying XP, so they've just got more levels.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

While this was pretty clearly the intention in 1E and 2E, I think it was poor game design. Roleplaying a zealot well is no more challenging than roleplaying any other character archetype well.

It is harder to keep a character alive when they are obligated to charge into dangerous situations, though. One of the reasons why many players lean toward Chaotic whenever possible is because it allows you to choose the most effective methods without regard for societal limitations. When the paladin was Lawful Good, and actually had their code spelled out in several points, they were prohibited from using those methods. Assuming ambush and poison are effective tools, a fighter who utilizes poison and ambushes is roughly as powerful as a fighter who doesn't use those things but instead has +2 to saves and a magic horse.

Back on topic, my primary fix for the paladin would be to turn its smite into a separate action. Instead of it being something you could retroactively apply after the fact, multiple times per turn, it could just be an action that lets you make one attack with some bonus to hit and/or damage. The easiest way to make it work within the existing framework would be to cast it as a cantrip that lets you make an attack with advantage, and adds an extra d8 radiant damage at the standard breakpoints. The other smite spells could work similarly, so you just cast the spell and instantly make the attack, and it wouldn't interfere with concentration.

I'd want to do something similar to the rogue's sneak attack, making it a different action with whatever damage bonus is necessary to keep it balanced, to fix its odd interactions with two-weapon fighting and opportunity attacks.

 

[Tony Vargas]

... Just imagine the Challenge Rating system if the rules acknowledged the power disparity: "A CR of 3 means this monster is an appropriate challenge for a party of four 3rd-level adventurers, or a party of four 2nd-level adventurers if one of them is a ....

Probably why we didn't even have a CR system for a long time.
Instead, we had adventures for a level range. Like 8-12, which meant a party with, say, a 12th level thief, 10th level fighter, 11th level cleric, 9th level magic-user and 5/6/8 fighter/magic-user/thief.
...not that it often worked out that way.

While this was pretty clearly the intention in 1E and 2E, I think it was poor game design.

For 1e it was arguably still early RPG design.

 

[Ovarwa]

Hi, everyone. Let's talk Paladins. What works about them? What would you change and why? How can they be improved? I would love to hear everyone's thoughts.

They are the best-designed class in the game, and we can't have that!

 

[DaveDash]

Having DM'd for a couple of different Paladins now from level 1-18, they're definitely the most consistently powerful class in the game. Probably the best class in the game across all levels.

I also would tone down their smite a bit - perhaps 1/turn - because they can burst damage way higher than their appropriate level, which makes any single big bad guy fighting them a wet paper towel. I've had a Paladin chew up Dragons, Balors, you name it by saving their high level smites for the big bad guy. A Paladin with Great Weapon Master is just scary.

Their aura is also very powerful. Yes it does encourage players to 'clump up' a bit, but not every fight you have a fireball on hand to deal with that.

Their weaknesses are really only their lack of ranged combat ability. I wouldn't even say saving throws are their weakness due to their aura. Due to their synergy with Charisma they also make great social characters too.

In summary I don't think they need any buffs what so ever. If anything a bit of a nerf, however as is they are a very fun class to play.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Honest question for those who want to nerf Divine Smite so bad: Have you actually broken down the numbers? Specifically vis a vis the Fighter, whose toes so many of you guys seem to believe the Paladin steps all over?

Let's compare the two at Lv. 17, in fact. Greatswords, Great Weapon Fighting Style.

The Paladin at that level has 3 4th-level and 1 5th-level slots. Can attach maximum-damage Smites to both hits 2 rounds per day. Assuming neither crits, that's, at most, an extra 45 avg. damage (5d8 + 5d8) in those rounds. Any other two-Smite turns that day will use lower-level spell slots for less damage.

The Fighter (Battle Master) at that level can add on an Action Surge turn: 3*(2d6r1&2 + 5) = an extra 40 avg. damage at the bare minimum. More than likely, that Fighter also used at least a Superiority Die or two. Just one of those used on an on-hit maneuver (1d10) puts that at 45.5, already ahead of the Paladin. More typical is 2 Superiority Dice (51) or even more. And the Fighter can do this 6 times per day, assuming 2 short rests, and never suffer a drop in damage output from lower-level slots like the Paladin does.

Oh, and I didn't even account for the Fighter taking Great Weapon Master and using the -5/+10 trade on that Action Surge. If so, that Action Surge adds an extra 30 points, bringing the totals to 70 (minimum), 75.5 (1 on-hit SD), 81 (2 on-hit SD). That's on top of the 70 the GWM Fighter was already doing without Action Surge. That Fighter is probably saving much of its Superiority Dice for Precision Attack to actually ensure most of that damage, too. Also since the Fighter gets 3 attacks and the Paladin 2, on its at-will turns the Fighter benefits more from GWM because that 3rd attack is another opportunity for that feat to add its damage.

Sooo ... yeah, I'm not seeing this problem of the Paladin stepping all over the Fighter, or even stepping on its toes at all. It's just not happening. The only time I can see a Paladin's Smite turn surpassing a Fighter's outright is if the enemy is paralyzed for auto-crits, which doesn't happen much if at all once you run into bosses with Legendary Resistance.

 

[Croesus]

Honest question for those who want to nerf Divine Smite so bad: Have you actually broken down the numbers? Specifically vis a vis the Fighter, whose toes so many of you guys seem to believe the Paladin steps all over?

Let's compare the two at Lv. 17, in fact. Greatswords, Great Weapon Fighting Style.

Just curious, how do those numbers compare at 8th level, no feats?

I've seen multiple paladins, but our highest-level character is just 12th (and the BM is only 7th), and I don't allow feats. In those middle levels (5-10), the paladins seem to have a far greater ability to nova than a fighter. A fighter (or barbarian) is more consistent across multiple fights, but for the BBEG, the paladin is hard to equal.

 

[DaveDash]

Honest question for those who want to nerf Divine Smite so bad: Have you actually broken down the numbers? Specifically vis a vis the Fighter, whose toes so many of you guys seem to believe the Paladin steps all over?

Let's compare the two at Lv. 17, in fact. Greatswords, Great Weapon Fighting Style.

The Paladin at that level has 3 4th-level and 1 5th-level slots. Can attach maximum-damage Smites to both hits 2 rounds per day. Assuming neither crits, that's, at most, an extra 45 avg. damage (5d8 + 5d8) in those rounds. Any other two-Smite turns that day will use lower-level spell slots for less damage.

The Fighter (Battle Master) at that level can add on an Action Surge turn: 3*(2d6r1&2 + 5) = an extra 40 avg. damage at the bare minimum. More than likely, that Fighter also used at least a Superiority Die or two. Just one of those used on an on-hit maneuver (1d10) puts that at 45.5, already ahead of the Paladin. More typical is 2 Superiority Dice (51) or even more. And the Fighter can do this 6 times per day, assuming 2 short rests, and never suffer a drop in damage output from lower-level slots like the Paladin does.

Oh, and I didn't even account for the Fighter taking Great Weapon Master and using the -5/+10 trade on that Action Surge. If so, that Action Surge adds an extra 30 points, bringing the totals to 70 (minimum), 75.5 (1 on-hit SD), 81 (2 on-hit SD). That's on top of the 70 the GWM Fighter was already doing without Action Surge. That Fighter is probably saving much of its Superiority Dice for Precision Attack to actually ensure most of that damage, too. Also since the Fighter gets 3 attacks and the Paladin 2, on its at-will turns the Fighter benefits more from GWM because that 3rd attack is another opportunity for that feat to add its damage.

Sooo ... yeah, I'm not seeing this problem of the Paladin stepping all over the Fighter, or even stepping on its toes at all. It's just not happening. The only time I can see a Paladin's Smite turn surpassing a Fighter's outright is if the enemy is paralyzed for auto-crits, which doesn't happen much if at all once you run into bosses with Legendary Resistance.

Lol why are you comparing Level 17 characters against each other when 90% of games will never get there, and Fighters get a nice huge boost at that level to their DPR due to multiple action surges. Also Paladins can use GWM for -5/+10 as well quite easily don't forget, and their damage output also means they're very likely killing creatures and procing that extra attack. This is all stuff I've seen in game regularly.

For a valid comparison you'll need to compare across all levels and average out the DPR, with more of a weight towards level 3-10 where most campaigns in reality actually play out. And then realise you're ONLY comparing damage in a fight, and ignoring all the juicy other stuff a Paladin brings to the table that a Fighter does not.

Also in the games I ran, it WAS quite a common tactic to go in there with Hold Person against NPCs and let the Paladin rip into them. Once your caster DC gets high enough and due to saving throws not scaling in D&D it was basically the "I win" button against most NPCs/Humanoids. Also note vengeance Paladins can get advantage on their attacks 1/short rest - which is a huge boost to their "actual" DPR especially with GWM, AND cast hold person if required.

As usual, in game experience > theorycrafting.

Fighters aren't weak either by the way, they're a pretty solid strong class. From a pure min/max perspective, Paladins are mostly better to have along in your group (buffing, healing, aura, social aspects), unless you need a ranged Fighter + sharpshooter.