D&D 5E Building a better Paladin

[Sacrosanct]

Also, the game is more than just number crunching against each other. I mentioned it in my post, but what I've seen is that people tend to save all of their spells for divine smite instead. Even when the other casters are low or out of spells. And that is a big negative for me. There's no reason why a paladin can't also cast bless, or dispel magic, or revivify once in a while you know. There are many more things that come up in the game that can help the party other than DPR bursts.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Just curious, how do those numbers compare at 8th level, no feats?

I've seen multiple paladins, but our highest-level character is just 12th (and the BM is only 7th), and I don't allow feats. In those middle levels (5-10), the paladins seem to have a far greater ability to nova than a fighter. A fighter (or barbarian) is more consistent across multiple fights, but for the BBEG, the paladin is hard to equal.

For a valid comparison you'll need to compare across all levels and average out the DPR, with more of a weight towards level 3-10 where most campaigns in reality actually play out.

OK, extra damage gained from Divine Smite (all hits, maximum available slots) vs. Action Surge + 2 on-hit Superiority Dice. Again, greatswords for both Paladin and Fighter w/ GWF Style. GWM's -5/+10 trade for Fighters in parentheses after:

Lv. 3 (STR 16 for both characters)
Paladin (Divine Smite): 2d8 = 9
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2d6r1&2 + 3 + 2d8 = 20.33 (+10 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 5 (STR 18 for both characters)
Paladin (Divine Smite): 3d8 + 3d8 = 27
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2*(2d6r1&2 + 4) + 2d8 = 33.66 (+20 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 8 (STR 20 for both characters)
Paladin (Divine Smite): 3d8 + 3d8 = 27
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2*(2d6r1&2 + 5) + 2d8 = 35.66 (+20 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 10
Paladin (Divine Smite): 4d8 + 4d8 = 36
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2*(2d6r1&2 + 5) + 2d10 = 37.66 (+20 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 13
Paladin (Divine Smite): 5d8 + 4d8 = 40.5
Fighter (AS+2SD): 3*(2d6r1&2 + 5) + 2d10 = 51 (+30 if -5/+10 trade)

So as you can see, the Fighter (at least the Battle Master, anyway) consistently novas more strongly through levels, even with the Paladin Smiting on every hit. The Paladin CAN stack a Smite spell of some sort on one of those hits to close the gap in some cases, but only at Lv. 10 would that actually pull the Paladin's nova ahead (without GWM's trade). And the Fighter would jump right back in front of that with its 3rd attack at Lv. 11.

Also Paladins can use GWM for -5/+10 as well quite easily don't forget, and their damage output also means they're very likely killing creatures and procing that extra attack.

Sure, but the -5/+10 part of that feat doesn't affect Divine Smite directly, whereas it does benefit Action Surge directly.

 

[Immoralkickass]

What I see all to often is that paladins don't even cast spells anymore--they just save it for divine smites. And as a player of a cleric in our biggest campaign, it would be nice from a party contribution stand point if the paladin also used spells to help the party, especially when I was low, rather than "save them" for divine smite.

I don't think there's anything wrong with that, its probably intentional by design that their spell slots are meant to supplement their martial ability, and the spells they get are simply optional utility. It would help a lot if their spells weren't so freaking garbage too, like Searing Smite, Magic Weapon and Create Food and Water for example.

I think 5e got the paladin class right. It captured the essence of the zealous/fanatic/holy warrior very well. If there is a class that should hit hard, its them. Their archetype is that of a super righteous guy, swearing an oath to his cause, usually to protect the weak or expel evil. If he is going to hit as hard as the average joe with a stick, it would feel.... very wrong. So I would say no to any nerfs on Divine Smite.

And no, I don't play paladins, I'm more of a magic user kind of guy. Whatever class I play, I would never do as much nova damage as paladins, and I'm fine with that. They are the boss killers, the named NPC killers, and you guys are just jealous of their awesomeness. If there's one thing I would change about them, its their saves proficiencies. It should be CHA and CON, not CHA and WIS. Divine Health alone should be good enough reason for good CON saves.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Also, the game is more than just number crunching against each other. I mentioned it in my post, but what I've seen is that people tend to save all of their spells for divine smite instead. Even when the other casters are low or out of spells. And that is a big negative for me. There's no reason why a paladin can't also cast bless, or dispel magic, or revivify once in a while you know. There are many more things that come up in the game that can help the party other than DPR bursts.

That's a fault of the player, not the class.

 

[Sacrosanct]

That's a fault of the player, not the class.

Wait, you're saying it's the fault of the player for not using their spells for other things, but you just got done basing your entire comparison on the paladin not casting spells but using them for divine smite. That seems a bit odd, as your entire argument is based on a scenario you're just now calling a problem with the player who does that.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Wait, you're saying it's the fault of the player for not using their spells for other things, but you just got done basing your entire comparison on the paladin not casting spells but using them for divine smite. That seems a bit odd, as your entire argument is based on a scenario you're just now calling a problem with the player who does that.

Uh, where in my math did I assume the Paladin uses ALL of its available spell slots per day entirely on Divine Smite? Oh, right, I didn't. I was comparing a nova round between the Paladin (which for some reason some people have a problem with) and the Fighter (which some people think the Paladin obsoletes for some reason) and showing how that's not the case.

 

[CTurbo]

I think the Paladin is the most well balanced, and probably most powerful class in 5e. They're pretty much good at everything. They certainly don't need any more buffs anywhere.

I'm playing a Paladin in two different campaigns. One spams Divine Smite and rarely casts any spell and the other rarely uses Divine Smite unless it's just REALLY necessary.

 

[Gladius Legis]

They're pretty much good at everything.

Well except ranged attacks. But they have to have a weakness somewhere.

I'm playing a Paladin in two different campaigns. One spams Divine Smite and rarely casts any spell and the other rarely uses Divine Smite unless it's just REALLY necessary.

Nods.

It really does depend on campaign and party composition. In some campaigns and parties, your role is to bring the damage. In others, your role is better served as support. I'm happy Paladins are able to fulfill both roles on a need basis.

 

[DaveDash]

OK, extra damage gained from Divine Smite (all hits, maximum available slots) vs. Action Surge + 2 on-hit Superiority Dice. Again, greatswords for both Paladin and Fighter w/ GWF Style. GWM's -5/+10 trade for Fighters in parentheses after:

Lv. 3 (STR 16 for both characters)
Paladin (Divine Smite): 2d8 = 9
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2d6r1&2 + 3 + 2d8 = 20.33 (+10 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 5 (STR 18 for both characters)
Paladin (Divine Smite): 3d8 + 3d8 = 27
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2*(2d6r1&2 + 4) + 2d8 = 33.66 (+20 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 8 (STR 20 for both characters)
Paladin (Divine Smite): 3d8 + 3d8 = 27
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2*(2d6r1&2 + 5) + 2d8 = 35.66 (+20 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 10
Paladin (Divine Smite): 4d8 + 4d8 = 36
Fighter (AS+2SD): 2*(2d6r1&2 + 5) + 2d10 = 37.66 (+20 if -5/+10 trade)

Lv. 13
Paladin (Divine Smite): 5d8 + 4d8 = 40.5
Fighter (AS+2SD): 3*(2d6r1&2 + 5) + 2d10 = 51 (+30 if -5/+10 trade)

So as you can see, the Fighter (at least the Battle Master, anyway) consistently novas more strongly through levels, even with the Paladin Smiting on every hit. The Paladin CAN stack a Smite spell of some sort on one of those hits to close the gap in some cases, but only at Lv. 10 would that actually pull the Paladin's nova ahead (without GWM's trade). And the Fighter would jump right back in front of that with its 3rd attack at Lv. 11.


Sure, but the -5/+10 part of that feat doesn't affect Divine Smite directly, whereas it does benefit Action Surge directly.

Your maths is flawed for a number of reasons. You can't just assume the Fighter gets GWM and the Paladin doesn't "because it benefits action surge directly", you're not factoring in to hit bonuses effects on average DPR, you're not factoring in the Paladins ability to get advantage 1/short rest and it's impact on DPR, you're not factoring in the fact the Fighter can generally only action surge 1/short rest, while the Paladin can continue to smite albeit at lower damage levels but generally all through the day, and a whole other things your very simplistic stats calculate.

We track stats in my campaigns and the most burst damage I have seen from characters in one round have been the following:

Fire Dragon Sorcerer casting a quickened Meteor Swarm + Fire bolt.
Vengeance Paladin marking + smite nova + GWM.
Hasted Crossbow Expert Fighter + Sharpshooter.

There are a lot more things that happen in a real game that simplistic white room number crunching.

 

[Gladius Legis]

Your maths is flawed for a number of reasons. You can't just assume the Fighter gets GWM and the Paladin doesn't "because it benefits action surge directly", you're not factoring in to hit bonuses effects on average DPR, you're not factoring in the Paladins ability to get advantage 1/short rest and it's impact on DPR, you're not factoring in the fact the Fighter can generally only action surge 1/short rest, while the Paladin can continue to smite albeit at lower damage levels but generally all through the day, and a whole other things your very simplistic stats calculate.

The assertion from people is that Divine Smite specifically is overpowered, and that allowing it to apply multiple times per round is overpowered. I compared that to the Fighter's main methods of nova damage (minus feats), Action Surge and Superiority Dice, and showed that wasn't the case.

To hit in that case wasn't relevant, nor is a full class comparison, because I was showing the maximums of the two classes' nova abilities specifically. If the Fighter is granted advantage, is Blessed, uses Precision Attack on misses, it's very possible for that Fighter to get all or most of that damage on a nova turn.

As for GWM, if I'm comparing the Fighter's Action Surge to the Paladin's Smite specifically, then yes, I do factor in GWM only for the Fighter. Both classes add GWM to their base attacks, but only one (the Fighter) adds it on their nova mechanic as well. If you wanted to factor in base attacks + nova abilities with GWM, it looks even better for the Fighter, since the Paladin will only add +20 (typically) from GWM to their potential damage, while the Fighter would add +40 from that feat before Lv. 11 and +60 from it after.