Building a Better Tumble

[Telas]

I don't have any experience with Tumble houserules, but I am starting to have a problem with monks having free reign of the battlefield. Since the DC doesn't scale, I don't see how it will get any better as levels increase.

Someone mentioned the DC(10+BAB) not scaling to Epic levels, but how the heck does DC15 scale at Epic levels? I've got a 4th level Monk who needs to roll higher than a 3 for a successful Tumble check....

Count me in for the DC(10+BAB) Tumble check.

Telas

PS: I didn't use Balance a lot, either, until I started using it for dungeon floors, roots, brush, mud, etc.

T

 

[Sir Brennen]

Why not split the difference? Start with the standard DC from 3.5 (maybe -5?) but have it give -1 to the attacker's BaB for every point you succeed by. If you reduce the BaB to 0, then no AoO.

This is more convoluted but exactly the same mathematically as adding BAB to the DC.

We've been using Attack Roll vs. Tumble Check Result, then no AoO if the tumbler wins; +5 to Opponent's Attack Roll for Tumbling through his square.

I like the DC+BAB mechanic, as it eliminates one roll from my own method. However, I'm not sure I like that tumbling past any 10th level fighter is always a DC 20 (barring conditional modifiers.) Even amongst the same class, some fighters are better than others. But I also see the argument that just because a fighter is strong doesn't mean he's fast enough to hit a tumbler. How about DC of 10+BAB+Dex bonus? Or does that start slowing the DC calc down too much? I mean, a 10th level tumbler with 18 Dex and max ranks already has a score of 17 - just one feat (Skill Focus or Acrobatic) or 5 ranks in Jump (+2 Synergy bonus) and he's still automatically making that DC 20 check, which would be even lower for non-fighter classes.

Hmmm.... maybe DC 15+BAB might be a better starting point? Also, since the BAB addition is helping the DC scale better already, I would only increase the DC for tumbling through an opponent or moving full speed by +5 instead of +10.

 

[Felnar]

doesnt adding in BAB defeat the point of buying up tumbling?

wouldnt a tumbler be better off just letting the opponent attempt their AoO,
and using all those tumble skill points in another skill?

mobility and dodge let the tumbler have +5 AC

 

[S'mon]

3.0 Tumble was broken, 3.5 seems to work fine - I have no problem w high level Rogues tumbling past fire giants (or high level Fighters) w/out provoking AoOs.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Tumble Adding to AC..

I like the idea of having Tumble add to your AC, per post #15 up there..

Not sure about all the math involved tho.
Perhaps just a scaled +2 to AC for beating DC 15 and an additional +2 AC for each +10 of DC.
{ +10 to the DC if not moving at half speed }

This could stack with fighting defensively and Mobility, allowing for close to untouchable movement while developing a deeper level of tactical consideration on both sides.


For passing through an enemies square, a Tumble check of DC 25 and a the opponent gains +4 to an AoO taken against you. This check is made when the character attempts to enter the square in question. A failed check or a successful AoO results in the loss of 1 squares worth of movement without advancing. Multiple attempts to pass an opponent can be made during a single move, provided the character has enough movement left to make it to a clear space on the other side of that opponent. Each additional attempt in a round grants the opponent an additional +2 to hit..altho he may well be out of AoOs to use.


IMC, AoO play a major part of the battlefield.. whether they get taken or not. My players always consider the possibility when moving about the battle.


Off the wall thought. Mounted Combat lets you substitute a Ride check for your mounts AC. Would it be that bad to have Tumble set your AC for the duration of the tumble? Mobility could add on top of that, maintaining its usefulness to tumble fiends.

enough rambling.

 

[Telas]

doesnt adding in BAB defeat the point of buying up tumbling?

wouldnt a tumbler be better off just letting the opponent attempt their AoO,
and using all those tumble skill points in another skill?

mobility and dodge let the tumbler have +5 AC

I do believe you've got it. Why should a few skill points (okay more than a few) affect combat so strongly? Are there any other skills that impact combat so directly?

As an aside: Has anyone ever considered the fact that it's actually far easier to hit someone doing somersaults and cartwheels than it is to hit someone moving cautiously but quickly, using their weapon to parry?

But back to your question. Most skill DCs become higher as you gain levels. Traps are better hidden, opponents are better liars, elite guards are more perceptive, etc. But Tumble sticks at DC15, whether you're tumbling past a Zombie or a 20th level Monk. Why should that be so? Why should the skill max out at +14? Sure, you can go for the "pass through enemy's square" or "full speed tumble", but how often are those actually used?

Telas, beginning to have deeper issues with Tumble....

 

[Izerath]

Another option

I've always viewed the AoOs for Tumbling as reactions, and thus I use the Reflex save modifier of the "defender" to add to the DC of the tumble check.

HOUSE RULE: TUMBLING NOW OPPOSED BY REFLEX SAVE MODIFIER

Normally, when you are attempting to Tumble past someone, the DC is 15. When you want to Tumble through them, the DC is 25.

HOUSE RULE: The defender you are tumbling past sets the DC for your Tumble check by adding her Reflex save modifier to the base DC of the Tumble skill check (see Tumble skill for the base DCs). If you beat the total of the base DC + Reflex modifier of the defender, you Tumble successfully past and do not provoke AoOs. If you fail, that defender can make AoOs against your character. Each defender you pass must be checked against and each defender will have a different DC based on their Reflex save modifier.

Thus, if you are attempting to get up to an ogre to attack without drawing an Attack of Opportunity (she has reach, so you're passing through a threatened area to get to her), you make a Tumble check vs. DC 15 + her Reflex save modifier. In this case the DC is still 15, since the ogre has a Reflex modifier of +0. For a Gargoyle, the DC would be (DC 15 + 6) or DC 21, which is much harder to achieve.

If you are trying to Tumble through the area occupied by a foe, the defender gets to add her Reflex Save modifier + DC 25 to generate the number you have to beat with your Tumble check. Thus for the Ogre, the DC remains 25, while for the gargoyle, the DC would be 31! Gargoyles are indeed quick foes!

This variant makes it much tougher to tumble past really quick foes and easier to get by slower ones. Any monk worth her salt can easily cartwheel through a band of ogres (DC 15), but getting by a group of Gargoyles is hard (DC 21).

Also, if you're wondering about the DCs of the monsters and how high they get, Gargoyle is an extreme example. I found very few creatures who have more than +1 to +2 modifiers for their Reflex save. Thus, this will edge the DCs slightly for most monsters, but for monsters with class levels or who are just really quick, it will make Tumbling a little harder, but not impossible.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I've never liked the way tumble works, it makes little sense to me that static skill check whould beat out even the greatest warrior.

There's a number of good ideas floating around, but I think a simple implementation would be to have the tumble check sub for the tumbler's AC vs movement-based AoOs when tumbling. For that purpose, you could even add dodge bonuses (like mobility) to the tumble check. Tumbling through an occupied square could still take a check, but just to see if you get through or not. Tumbling wouldn't negate AoOs, just make them harder to land, so it wouldn't be a straight 'nerf' of tumbling, as it'd also make it effective at 'burning off' AoOs.

Keep in mind that skill checks easily outstrip attack rolls - skills start at 4 and go up to 23, take a stat bonus, take synergy bonuses, and are cheap to buy up with magic items, with no upper limit. AB starts at 1 and goes to 20 (at best), takes a stat bonus, and is expensive to buy up with magic to a max of +5 (magic weapons). The tumbler will still win prettymuch automatically against lower-level types, will have a better than even chance vs same-level, but low-level tumblers won't be casually tumbling past high level warrior-types.

 

[Hodgie]

I have a concern with the 10 + BAB DC for tumble. Compare a tumbling rogue to a standard fighter of equal levels. Skills begin at 4 while BAB begins at 1 so the tumbler has a +3 advantage. Soon after the synergy bonus will give a +2 bonus, stats will give around a +4 at mid-higher levels. So 3 from skills points, 2 from synergy, 4 from stats is 9.

This means that because the BAB is increased by 10 to calc the DC, a very dexterous rogue who is an expert tumbler will have LESS than a 50/50 chance to tumble past a fighter. Even if you don't like the RAW, a 10th level rogue should be nearing +20 to tumble, allowing him to _automatically_ tumble past that fighter and three of his friends. This is a huge change.

You are changing the tumble skill from something that the game designers made a mild challenge that increases with distance into something that is more work than it is worth. Dropping 13 ranks into tumble to succeed half the time at a simple (albeit useful) action is terrible game design.

 

[Telas]

I'm not following you. If tumble is a class skill, it should improve by at least one each level (assuming you're not ignoring it). Add in the synergy and stat bonuses that you'll probably get, and your tumble bonus is going to grow slightly faster than one per level.

BAB never grows at faster than one per level. Your attack bonus may grow incredibly fast (especially if the DM's got a light hand on the magic items), but even the fastest BAB progression is one per level.

So at higher levels, you should actually have a better chance than at lower levels.

Example: Same level fighter and rogue. Rogue is putting 4, 1, 1, ranks into Jump, and has an initial DEX of 16, going to 17 at 4th, and 18 at 8th. This assumes no magic items that will assist in tumbling.

Level - BAB - DC - Tumble bonus - d20 roll needed:
1 - 1 - 11 - 7 - 4
2 - 2 - 12 - 9 - 3
3 - 3 - 13 - 10 - 3
4 - 4 - 14 - 11 - 3
5 - 5 - 15 - 12 - 3
6 - 6 - 16 - 13 - 3
7 - 7 - 17 - 14 - 3
8 - 8 - 18 - 16 - 2
9 - 9 - 19 - 17 - 2

As you can see, the d20 needed to successfully Tumble past an opponent drops as you go up in levels. If the Rogue isn't putting skill points into it, why should he continue to avoid a fighter who is continuously getting better?

Telas