Building a Better Tumble

[Yair]

Note also that the DC's in Telas's numbers will actually decrease further with levels, as a devoted tumbler will probably get Dex-boosting items and other benefits. In other words, at high levels the character will be able to tumble more easily, and could afford to the the extravagant stuff like tumbling at full speed - but will still be at some risk.

I haven't considered Epic scaling, that is a problem, but I suppose it can just be solved at epic levels.

I like the idea of tying the DC to the Reflex save, making the foe's switness the key problem. I am concerned, however, that it doesn't scale well. Perhaps DC 15+Ref bonus could work well enough - difficult at low levels, fairly easy at high and epic levels.

 

[Sir Brennen]

For an extreme example of how you could design a 1st level character that can almost automatically succeeds against a DC of 15:

1st Level Human Rogue
Skill Ranks: 4
Feat: Acrobatic (+2)
Feat: Skill Focus (+3)
Dex bonus: +4 (18 Dex)
Total: 13

So this guy only fails on a roll of 1 at 1st level. Now all he has to do is bring his Jump score to 5 at 2nd level (+2 synergy bonus), and it's automatic, without even adding another point to the skill.

 

[Hodgie]

Yeah- for some reason I added another 10 in my head to every number, meaning that as your numbers approached 0 as you went higher in levels mine approached 10... so my bad.

 

[Sledge]

Are people really having trouble because of tumble? I have played a few tumbling characters, and while it is sure convenient it usually just involves moving slowly... 15ft without an AOO is no big deal. To get real speed at it a monk guaranteed to move at full speed at around 8th level IF the monk spends multiple feats on it. Realistically those feats will be spent elsewhere requiring around 13th level to get full speed of 70ft per round. Is this what everyone has a problem with? Or is it that Fighter who has taken full cross class ranks in the skill and is just finally at 12th level able to actually make succesful uses of it at half speed? All of the fixes I've seen so far succesfully nerf it for one player with the rest of the players will never bother with the skill.

 

[Telas]

Are people really having trouble because of tumble?

My problem with it is three-fold:

1) A decent Monk or Rogue pretty much has free reign of the battlefield starting around level 4. (7 ranks, +3 stats, +2 synergy = tumbles successfully on a 3 or higher.) That's pretty powerful stuff for seven skill points.

2) He's pretty much done with the skill at that point, if he chooses not to pursue "tumble through an enemy" or "full speed ahead". Almost all other skill DCs scale as the PCs grow.

3) No other skill directly affects combat. That's for Feats.

Telas

 

[Zoatebix]

Welll... bluff is used for feignting, ride pretty much directly affects combat, same thing with hide, spot, move silent, and listen for working denying/allowing dex bonuses to AC and sneak attacks.

Personally - I'm in favor of almost all skills having combat potential. I love stunts and all the material from the Book of Iron Might, and I'm a fan of Rich Burlew's alternate Knowledge skill rules (http://www.giantitp.com/Func0019.html) (I like his diplomacy rules, too, but they don't have much to do with combat). I'm really looking forward to Mearl's Iron Lore, too.

Anyways, I kind of like the breakdown (from post 19 and 22, and... 40I think) of the tumble the 10+bab method. It's not so nerfy, really - the DCs are lower of equal to the PH rules until level 6 or higher for some enemies...

 

[Hodgie]

That level 4 rogue can only tumble past a single foe at 3+ and, as has been stated, can generally only move 15 feet. I can see how high level monks may have 'command of the battlefield' with their increased movement, but at this point that is _what the monk does_.

 

[Sledge]

That 1/2 movement rate effect is just 3 squares for a rogue remember. And the first square is free normally. So 2 bonus squares. To judge the effectiveness in combat you HAVE to consider the 25 DC as normal. 13th level for a monk or rogue to move around freely just doesn't seem like such a big deal. If you cripple it beyond this level remember the skill IS only useful for the monks. Even a rogue is gonna forget about the skill if he never gets more effective at it. Any of the opposed systems would require an equally obscure skill to be even marginally acceptable. Opposing with BAB is just a knee jerk reaction to keep those naughty tumblers from being effective. If you find the skill to be too powerful because of how you run your campaign, then consider whether it is the skill that is broken or the campaign. 4 on 1 matches WILL involve the party having command of the battlefield. That is as it should be. Any situation where the party is against multiple targets ups that DC. Once you get a couple of opponents the dc will be several above the situation. That speedy monk with speedy boots can probably move around more easily without tumbling anyways. The rogue shouldn't commit suicide for 1 sneak attack. (I.E. tumbling into the middle of combat.)
So what are the REAL abuses of tumble?

 

[Zoatebix]

Hmmm. Now I kinda wish Wulf Ratbane would show up to talk about his design decision for Grim Tales...

 

[Shellman]

The 3.5 Tumble rules work fine, I find no reason to re-invent the wheel!

Besides not everyone can use tumble.