Buy off LA?
- Thread starter Sylrae
- Start date
It's a rules variant from Unearthed Arcana.
Essentially, once you gain HD equal to 3x your LA, upon gaining sufficient XP to level up, you may instead reduce your LA by 1.
Drow are the example used in the book, as I recall.
With a LA of +2, you can drop it to +1 after gaining 6 HD from class levels, thus, instead of becoming a level 9 character with 7 HD and a +2 LA, you become a level 8 character with 7 HD and a +1 LA. The next time you reduce your LA is after gaining 3x LA HD again, in this example after becoming a level 11 character with 10 HD and a +1 LA, you could next become a level 11 character with 11 HD and no LA, instead of becoming a level 12 character with 11 HD and a +1 LA.
Don't drow have an LA of +3?
Essentially, once you gain HD equal to 3x your LA, upon gaining sufficient XP to level up, you may instead reduce your LA by 1.
Drow are the example used in the book, as I recall.
With a LA of +2, you can drop it to +1 after gaining 6 HD from class levels, thus, instead of becoming a level 9 character with 7 HD and a +2 LA, you become a level 8 character with 7 HD and a +1 LA. The next time you reduce your LA is after gaining 3x LA HD again, in this example after becoming a level 11 character with 10 HD and a +1 LA, you could next become a level 11 character with 11 HD and no LA, instead of becoming a level 12 character with 11 HD and a +1 LA.
Don't drow have an LA of +3?
Shin Okada
Explorer
Does that rule actually reduce LA? So suddenly the said drow's ECL (CL + LA) become 1 level behind other member of the party? That seems to be broken.
Then, he will get +30% more XP comparing to the others in the following encounters and soon will "catch up" with others. Eventually, we will see, say, Fighter 15 drow and Fighter 15 human is in the same party and considered to be "equally powerful"? Or that optional rule has something to compensate it?
Then, he will get +30% more XP comparing to the others in the following encounters and soon will "catch up" with others. Eventually, we will see, say, Fighter 15 drow and Fighter 15 human is in the same party and considered to be "equally powerful"? Or that optional rule has something to compensate it?
darthkilmor
First Post
Shin Okada
Explorer
darthkilmor said:
Thanks. So, my assumption seems to be right.
In the example, the said Gnoll-Fighter 2 (ECL 5 /with LA +0 and 10,000 gp) are now with 6th-level core race PCs. But as he has lower ECl than other PCs, he will get more XP from each encounters. In my experience, within 2 or 3 adventures, he will catch up with others in XP and then we will see Gnoll Fighter 4 and Human Fighter 6 is fighting together and treated equally in regard of XP and levelling up.
The Gnoll's example seems not much troublesome. But that is just because Humanoid Racial HD sucks. Think about, something without racial HD or better creature type (Like Dragon, Outsider, or maybe monstrous humanoid). If they eventually "buy off" their LAs, if the total HD is equal, those races should be just stronger. Compare a 10th-level Half-Ogre fighter and a 10th-level Human Fighter.
IMHO, That option rule is wrong from the first assumption. LA +X is huge burden in LOWER LEVEL games and the effect of slightly small number of total HD become insignificant in Higher Level games.
It is painful to play a L2 Half-Ogre Barbarian as a member of 4th-level party. But it is not that so bad to play a L8 Half-Ogre Barbarian as a member of 10th-level party.
His party member's would also level up.
Yes, he gets more XP, but not so much where he catches up exceptionally quickly - besides, the lowest you can buy off 1 LA is at the transition to level 5 (3 class levels, +1 LA to start with). Bear in mind, that he's going to be most of a level in XP behind the rest of the party for quite some time (excepting the crafters and other casters who burn XP for spell and items).
I've played with it, and it never seemed overpowered - it did make certain options more appealing - low LA templates and races that otherwise probably wouldn't have seen much use, except in the DM's hands, but on the whole, my group found that it enhanced our game, YMMV of course.
As for your worries, Shin, most of the low LA and races (which are the ones that benefit the most) aren't made much stronger after buy-off. The high-LA templates and races that you seem to be concerned about take a lot longer to realize any benefit from this - LA +3 can take off one point of LA at the level 10-11 transition, next shot is at the 16-17 transition, LA +4, at the level 12-13 transition, then at epic levels for the next point of LA.
It takes a rather long time to get rid of an LA of more than +1 or +2, long enough where characters are powerful enough where whatever benefits from their LA are long past usefulness or are significantly reduced in power.
Yes, he gets more XP, but not so much where he catches up exceptionally quickly - besides, the lowest you can buy off 1 LA is at the transition to level 5 (3 class levels, +1 LA to start with). Bear in mind, that he's going to be most of a level in XP behind the rest of the party for quite some time (excepting the crafters and other casters who burn XP for spell and items).
I've played with it, and it never seemed overpowered - it did make certain options more appealing - low LA templates and races that otherwise probably wouldn't have seen much use, except in the DM's hands, but on the whole, my group found that it enhanced our game, YMMV of course.
As for your worries, Shin, most of the low LA and races (which are the ones that benefit the most) aren't made much stronger after buy-off. The high-LA templates and races that you seem to be concerned about take a lot longer to realize any benefit from this - LA +3 can take off one point of LA at the level 10-11 transition, next shot is at the 16-17 transition, LA +4, at the level 12-13 transition, then at epic levels for the next point of LA.
It takes a rather long time to get rid of an LA of more than +1 or +2, long enough where characters are powerful enough where whatever benefits from their LA are long past usefulness or are significantly reduced in power.
Zurai
First Post
Yeah, LA buyoff is really only useful for +1 and +2, and by the time the character HAS caught up to the other members of the party in actual level, the bonuses from that +1 or +2 LA race/template are usually only very minor in the big picture. At that point you'll be level 10 or 11 even with a +1 LA buyoff, and (for example) the 1/day darkness, energy resistances, and +2 total stats hardly matter compared to 6th level spells for a tiefling.
Shin Okada
Explorer
Actually, I am not concerning about high LA races. There are LA +1 to +2 warrior type races such as Centaur, Goliath, Half-Ogre, Catfolk and such. They have +4 or more on str or dex and have some additional abilities, too. Drow and Gnoll are indeed on the weaker side.
And, I think the very concept of optional rule is wrong because, as I described in the first post, that is in LOWER LEVEL games which LA +x race suffers much. Not in HIGHER LEVEL games. In lower level games, difference in HD by 1 or 2 does effects much. But at higher level, it does not harm much.
Try to play a 1st-level Half-Ogre fighter as a member of 3rd-level party. You offensive ability may be even greater than that human L3 Fighter. But you are still a 1HD character and thus have appropriately low hp total and saves. You will likely to die by, say, CR 3 traps which usually does not kill a 3rd-level frontline fighter. And there are many spells with HD caps in low-to med level, and you will likely to be the only applicable target from time to time.
But when you are a 18th-level Half-Ogre Fighter and your friend is a normal Human 20th-level fighter. You will not likely to suffer much from that small difference in the number of HD. And your total HP is coming closer to it's of 20th-level human fighter thanks to your high con. And of course, in regard to attack power, you are stronger.
So, IMHO, gradually removing the burden of LA will just make the +X LA race unnecessary stronger at higher level campaign, while does not save them at low-to med level campaign.
And, I think the very concept of optional rule is wrong because, as I described in the first post, that is in LOWER LEVEL games which LA +x race suffers much. Not in HIGHER LEVEL games. In lower level games, difference in HD by 1 or 2 does effects much. But at higher level, it does not harm much.
Try to play a 1st-level Half-Ogre fighter as a member of 3rd-level party. You offensive ability may be even greater than that human L3 Fighter. But you are still a 1HD character and thus have appropriately low hp total and saves. You will likely to die by, say, CR 3 traps which usually does not kill a 3rd-level frontline fighter. And there are many spells with HD caps in low-to med level, and you will likely to be the only applicable target from time to time.
But when you are a 18th-level Half-Ogre Fighter and your friend is a normal Human 20th-level fighter. You will not likely to suffer much from that small difference in the number of HD. And your total HP is coming closer to it's of 20th-level human fighter thanks to your high con. And of course, in regard to attack power, you are stronger.
So, IMHO, gradually removing the burden of LA will just make the +X LA race unnecessary stronger at higher level campaign, while does not save them at low-to med level campaign.
