Buy off LA?

[Shin Okada]

Frankly, you're totally wrong. For one thing, you can ONLY remove a +1 LA and still catch up in levels pre-Epic. You don't finish off +2 LA buyoff until ECL 11, and it'll take more than 9 levels to fully catch up in experience,

Why? about +30% (or even more if a DM tend to use multiple low-CR monsters) in XP for each encounter is big. And I actually saw many PCs caches up with others after becoming a level or two behind others by dying or making magic items.

For Centaur. At least Centaur with full-BAB class does not suck at higher level. For example, A Centaur Barbarian 10 (14HD, +14BAB with high strength and large size, ECL 16) is as good as a human Barbarian 16. If you chosen a caster class for a race which meant not to be effective as casters, that is just your bad choice.

And,

I don't think you realize just how huge a handicap it is to not be allowed to take a class level until ECL 7

This is what I am saying. LA +X race suffers most at their beginning. And works well at higher levels. So, there is no need for removing LA only at higher level. If we really want to make monster races playable at any level, we should adjust the balance at lower levels, not that of higher levels.

 

[Sylrae]

so the only change is that they are now officially giants and that they went up a LA? I think thats a bit high. but the buyoffs are what I was asking about, and I had no Idea that variant existed. Very helpful. Thanks.

As for buyoff being unbalanced at higher levels and useless at lower levels, I think it's not quite good enough. I think it should be at double your LA, not triple, and thats mainly because LA+HD totally screws any casters (usually).

I'm preparing to start an Underdark campaign, and I'm encouraging the use of drow and templates. (I will be making Drider a number of templates instead of one template or 1 race).

I help with the spellcasters in this way:

Spellcasting classes that multiclass may add one third of their total level in their other classes to their effective caster level for all purposes. For example a fighter 10/ wizard 10 will cast spells as a 13th level wizard, and a cleric 10/sorcerer 10 would cast spells as a 13th level cleric and a 13th level sorcerer. Prestige classes that improve the spellcasting ability of a class a character already has levels in, such as mystic theurge or eldritch knight, improve spellcasting normally and are not counted toward this benefit unless 1/3 is higher than the class’ improvement, in which case the 1/3 is used instead.

But LA is not a perfect system. I think the numbers are too high usually, and in races with HD particularly.

Racial HD should be equivalent in power to a class of the same level., and LA should only happen if its more powerful than a class of the same HD. - my .02$.

Minotaur should have no LA, assuming you keep the HD. That's my thought. Maybe the system could be effectively houseruled? What say you?

Edit: Maybe On top of the HD getting 'class abilities' idea buying off LA, LA doesnt take effect immediately. Maybe if LA took effect 1 after every 3 levels the Hit Dice wouldnt be broken. So a Drow who is ECL 4 would have 3 Levels, at ECL 8 they would have 6.

 

[Shin Okada]

so the only change is that they are now officially giants and that they went up a LA? I think thats a bit high. but the buyoffs are what I was asking about, and I had no Idea that variant existed. Very helpful. Thanks.

Playing such a big thing at lower level campaign is a bad idea. But being big and having no racial HD is good. Well worth +2LA at med to higher level games IMHO.

By the way, if you really want to be a humanoid, you can take Human Heritage feat at the 1st character level. Now you are a large humanoid (human). Thus, your friend can cast Enlarge Person on you and now you are a huge humanoid (human).

Or, be a Psychic Warrior and use Expansion Power. You can be a really big giant now.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't think so. That option rule simply removes all the disadvantages which LA+X races have at med-to-higher level. Nothing is evened out. It is one of the cheesiest way to make a uber character. And players of core race characters in the same party may feel annoying, when other PCs have same HD and just higher ability scores and/or fancy abilities.

Hmm.


First off they won't have the same HD - they will be a level behind. Even when they gain enough xp to become the same level they are still farther away from the next level than the other PCs.

EXPERIENCE POINT COST
Each time a character’s level adjustment is eligible to be reduced, the character may pay an XP cost to take advantage of the reduction. The character must pay an amount of XP equal to (his current ECL – 1) × 1,000. This amount is immediately deducted from the character’s XP total. The deduction should reduce the character’s effective character level (ECL) by 1. (If this deduction would not reduce the character’s ECL by 1, the character’s XP total is set at the maximum of the level below his current ECL instead.) This XP cost can’t be reversed in any way, and the payment must be voluntary on the part of the character. The payment must be made immediately upon becoming eligible to reduce the character’s level adjustment.

You immediately lose (once taken - you can choose to delay the buy back as long as you want, it will only get more "expensive") Xp = current ECL-1,000 (or enough to drop the character 1 level, shichever is more.

So a LA+1 character can at ECL 4 (3 class levels) spend 3,000 xp to buy back the level. If this does not drop him to a 3rd level character then he loses sufficient xp to place him 1 xp below 4th level. Depending at which ECL the character "buys back" this can be a huge cost.

Now after the buy back the character will gain xp "quicker" than his counterparts since he is lower level. But so would any other PC that is at the same level. This xp award is still divided by the number of characters in the party - so the "gain" is not so quick as one might think.

 

[Drowbane]

It is revised to LA+2 in Races of Destiny.

Its a good thing I never bought that book.

 

[Shin Okada]

Now after the buy back the character will gain xp "quicker" than his counterparts since he is lower level. But so would any other PC that is at the same level. This xp award is still divided by the number of characters in the party - so the "gain" is not so quick as one might think.

Someone a level behind others will gain +25-30% more XP approx. Or, in extreme case, if DM uses a lot of low-level grants, only the lower level PCs gain XP (actually, it happend in a game i attended).

I actually played a cleric who died once and raised, and still made a lot of magic items, then cought up with others in level within 2 sessions. I admit that was a combat/trap heavy one, though.

And many PCs in my play group actually lose at least half level behind others due to raise dead spells. But they usually catch up with others within a session or two.

 

[Sylrae]

I posted some houserules on less crapifying the LA. Theyre in the House Rules section. Theyre similar to the ones I presented here.

I'm not sure if actually buying off LA is the answer, but some sort of compensation is needed, because the penalties are higher than the benefits in most cases.

 

[Zurai]

For Centaur. At least Centaur with full-BAB class does not suck at higher level. For example, A Centaur Barbarian 10 (14HD, +14BAB with high strength and large size, ECL 16) is as good as a human Barbarian 16.

Not even CLOSE. Centaur barb 10 has two fewer hit die (and four of those dice are two sizes smaller), only two attacks (the natural attack is useless at that level), one less feat, significantly fewer skill points, worse fort save, no reach despite being large size, and they don't even know COMMON without a positive Int (which has a negative modifier for Centaurs) or spending two of their limited skill points. Then they lose 6 levels of barbarian, which is 2 uses of rage (leaving them only 3, which isn't even enough to use it every encounter in a 'standard' day), reduction in DR by 2, greater rage, indomitable will, and two steps of trap sense.

Oh yeah, not to mention: just try playing a centaur in a standard dungeon. 5' door? You're screwed. Have to climb a rope? Better hope the wizard has two fly spells prepared (one coming, one going)! Charging? Yeah right.

If you chosen a caster class for a race which meant not to be effective as casters, that is just your bad choice.

By your definition, any race with LA is 'not meant to be effective as casters'. So what you're saying is that you should only play a caster if you are playing a LA+0 race.

This is what I am saying. LA +X race suffers most at their beginning. And works well at higher levels. So, there is no need for removing LA only at higher level. If we really want to make monster races playable at any level, we should adjust the balance at lower levels, not that of higher levels.

LA does NOT work well at higher levels. ESPECIALLY for spellcasters. The only class LA doesn't bother terribly much at high levels is Fighter, and as I mentioned Fighters are such a throwaway that anything that helps them is good.

 

[Psion]

Drow's LA is +2 and not +3.

Feel free to replace "drow" with "deep gnome". The point remains.

And I still say playing a 1st-level drow mage as a member of 3rd-level party will be much troublesome comparing to playing a 13th level drow mage as a member of 15th-level party.

ECLs are based on where the race is strongest (class/level wise), not where it is weakest.

 

[Psion]

You clearly don't realize how huge a difference two levels of a full spellcasting class makes. If you ask on the CharOp boards, you will be told UNANIMOUSLY not to use LA races for a full spellcaster unless you can use LA buyoff. LA cripples spellcasters.

Precisely.