Buy off LA?

[Shin Okada]

This Half Ogre?

It is revised to LA+2 in Races of Destiny.

 

[irdeggman]

The advantage for buying back levels comes into play with things like:

Casters - they can start to "catch" up with their full-caster levels.

Max skill ranks - limited to 3 + Hit Dice (not ECL)

Level based feats - again based on hit die and not ECL

Any level-based check (like turning checks for example)


These all have a factor if the character has a LA.

As far as why someone would want to play a LA character in a low level game - well that is up to the player to realize his "limitations" due to the gaining of the abilities that raised his ECL in the first place.

In my current Age of Worms game I have 2 goliaths and 1 aasimar (all +1 LA)

The PCs are all ECL = 3 currently (started out at 2 per my game rules).

The goliaths can deal a tremendous amount of damage but only have 1 hit dice (even though their Con bonus adds to this, it is still not a full hit die gain) and lower BAB (affects things like power attack) and and fewer feats.

The aasimar is a cleric and gains a lot of "clerical" benefits as well as the resistances and spell like abilities. But has real low hit points - in fact one blow from a raging dwarf barbarian with power attack and a great axe took him down to 1 hit point (good thing it wasn't a critical).

These are the trade offs of the early on power of the LA races.

 

[Shin Okada]

Yes, playing LA +X race at low level, with that big disadvantages is a player's choice. And could be an interesting challenge.

But, through gaining levels, that small difference in the number of HD will become less and less significant. Even a caster type will eventually get 9th-level spells, though it may just in epic-level campaign. And that is just the same disadvantage that some multiclassed casters or character who chosen some prestige class without full spell casting progression suffers.

Why there is a need for "eliminating" that disadvantage in med-to-higher level? Isn't it simply make LA +X races better than core race at higher levels? I don't see any game balance there.

 

[irdeggman]

Why there is a need for "eliminating" that disadvantage in med-to-higher level? Isn't it simply make LA +X races better than core race at higher levels? I don't see any game balance there.

Buying back LA is purely a player's choice.

In my game 1 player (the aasimar's) is planning on buying his level back, the other two (goliath's) are not. Meanwhile the shifter, dwarf, elf and human are gaining levels without worry (although the dwarf did go fighter 1/wizard 2 (for a prestige class) and is discovering the "problem" with multi-classing spellcasters.

IMO it all evens out - whichever makes the player feel better about is fine. It is all about maintaining balance between characters (and players) IMO.

 

[Shin Okada]

IMO it all evens out - whichever makes the player feel better about is fine. It is all about maintaining balance between characters (and players) IMO.

I don't think so. That option rule simply removes all the disadvantages which LA+X races have at med-to-higher level. Nothing is evened out. It is one of the cheesiest way to make a uber character. And players of core race characters in the same party may feel annoying, when other PCs have same HD and just higher ability scores and/or fancy abilities.

 

[Psion]

In the example, the said Gnoll-Fighter 2 (ECL 5 /with LA +0 and 10,000 gp) are now with 6th-level core race PCs. But as he has lower ECl than other PCs, he will get more XP from each encounters. In my experience, within 2 or 3 adventures, he will catch up with others in XP and then we will see Gnoll Fighter 4 and Human Fighter 6 is fighting together and treated equally in regard of XP and levelling up.

That's right, but the same is true of a character who permanencied a bunch of spells or made a wad of magic items.

IMHO, That option rule is wrong from the first assumption. LA +X is huge burden in LOWER LEVEL games and the effect of slightly small number of total HD become insignificant in Higher Level games.

Eh. You might be able to cite cases where this is true, but AFAIAC, a level typically means more as you level. Playing a (say) 12th level drow mage in a 15th level game hurts; the abilities you get aren't quite worth 3 levels of spells, bonuses, casting level, and hd.

 

[Shin Okada]

Eh. You might be able to cite cases where this is true, but AFAIAC, a level typically means more as you level. Playing a (say) 12th level drow mage in a 15th level game hurts; the abilities you get aren't quite worth 3 levels of spells, bonuses, casting level, and hd.

Drow's LA is +2 and not +3. And I still say playing a 1st-level drow mage as a member of 3rd-level party will be much troublesome comparing to playing a 13th level drow mage as a member of 15th-level party.

And, anyway, drow is one of the weakest race amongst +2 LA races from the beginning. They are weak at any level as a PC. They are even on rather weaker side as an opponent of certain CR. And elven mage (including drow) is actually not a wonderful idea because of low Con. So in that case the problem is that drow is weak and a Drow Mage is not a good idea ... power gaming wise. Not that LA +X races suffers more at higher level in generic.

 

[Zurai]

That option rule simply removes all the disadvantages which LA+X races have at med-to-higher level. Nothing is evened out. It is one of the cheesiest way to make a uber character. And players of core race characters in the same party may feel annoying, when other PCs have same HD and just higher ability scores and/or fancy abilities.

Frankly, you're totally wrong. For one thing, you can ONLY remove a +1 LA and still catch up in levels pre-Epic. You don't finish off +2 LA buyoff until ECL 11, and it'll take more than 9 levels to fully catch up in experience, ESPECIALLY if you're doing anything that burns experience (spellcasting or item creation). At LA+3, you barely even pay off the LA pre-Epic, and anything past that and you're stuck with LA+2 even going into epic levels. Since "epic level balance" is an oxymoron, I'm going to completely dismiss everything past level 20. As for "fancy abilities", I'd rather have a baseline Dwarf's horde of abilities than a Tiefling's +2 to bluff and hide and useless spell 1/day.

For another:

Actually, I am not concerning about high LA races. There are LA +1 to +2 warrior type races such as Centaur, Goliath, Half-Ogre, Catfolk and such. They have +4 or more on str or dex and have some additional abilities, too. Drow and Gnoll are indeed on the weaker side.

First: Centaurs have 4 Monstrous Humanoid hit die, which are piss-poor and cannot be bought off. A centaur anything (except maybe fighter - and seriously, anything that helps fighters is good) is worse off than a non-centaur, even if they had no LA. I don't think you realize just how huge a handicap it is to not be allowed to take a class level until ECL 7. I do; I've played a centaur. It sucked total donkey balls.

Second: Why the hell are you worried about buffing PHYSICAL classes? Even with no racial HD and no LA, a level 20 centaur barbarian is a wimp compared to a level 20 no-racial-abilities-at-all wizard or cleric or druid. Hell, he probably just gets dominated in the first round, and now he's on the spellcaster's team.

 

[Zurai]

Drow's LA is +2 and not +3. And I still say playing a 1st-level drow mage as a member of 3rd-level party will be much troublesome comparing to playing a 13th level drow mage as a member of 15th-level party.

You clearly don't realize how huge a difference two levels of a full spellcasting class makes. If you ask on the CharOp boards, you will be told UNANIMOUSLY not to use LA races for a full spellcaster unless you can use LA buyoff. LA cripples spellcasters.

 

[Shin Okada]

You clearly don't realize how huge a difference two levels of a full spellcasting class makes. If you ask on the CharOp boards, you will be told UNANIMOUSLY not to use LA races for a full spellcaster unless you can use LA buyoff. LA cripples spellcasters.

Yes I DO realize. If I were you, I will never choose LA +x race for pure caster types. So, I am saying that AT ANY LEVEL, a drow mage is a bad idea. And suffers MUCH at lower levels. Do your really want to play a 1st-level drow mage with only 5 or so of hp (assuming you used 6 points for con in point-buy system) as a member or 3rd level party? Do you really think he have a good chance to survive a day's session? Do you really think he can contribute enough as a party member?

So, removing LA only at med-to-higher campaign is a wrong concept from beginning. If you need to make a drow as a playable race, especially as a caster, toning them down and lowering LA is the way to go. Thus, lesser drow is the better option in regard to game balance.