Buy off LA?

[irdeggman]

I've seen the Savage Progressions. They work for some races - They work for Drow except for the 2 levels behind thing - but just add +1 spellcasting (like a PrC) to favored class at level two and it's good.

That still doesn't fix the fact that for a number of monsters, Hit Dice+Level Adjust is not equal to a comparable class at the same ECL. The Monster Dice + Level adjust is simply too big a number for what you get. Hell. The Hit Dice may count as too big a number for what you get. Like most constructs. even if theyre awakened. 1- im not sure where youd get the LA, but 2, the HD give you virtually nothing.

Monster hit dice count towards character level feats (unlike LA) and they count towards max skill ranks and they give you access to monsterous feats (that normal PCs may or may not have access too depending on the Dm, but monsters always do).

By counting towards max skill ranks and character level feats monster hit dice help you to be able to meet prestige class prerequisites that require x ranks in a skill (which is becoming more and more the norm).

 

[Sylrae]

I know they give you standard feats and skill points, but they dont have class features OR spells, making them far worse than actual levels, and thus, having LA for all the they DO get is unreasonable, and they should only have a LA if the stuff they get is more powerful (including their HD), than a comparable class of the same level. I have to st up for a lan party, but I'll put up an example some time tomorrow.

 

[Shin Okada]

I know they give you standard feats and skill points, but they dont have class features OR spells, making them far worse than actual levels

Well, high ability scores, lareger size, special attacks and special abilities are equivalents of class features. Some of them are crappy, but some of them are really nice. So you should be carefully determine each monsters.

For example, "Minotaur" is not at all a bad "class" indeed. There maybe objections. But being Large size itself is a big advantage when 3.5e is using "special size mod" for most special attacks and rules for space and reach. And their "class features" includes "immune to Maze", "Never lose one's way" and "Never be flat-footed" , on top of high abilitiy scores.

 

[irdeggman]

Well, high ability scores, lareger size, special attacks and special abilities are equivalents of class features. Some of them are crappy, but some of them are really nice. So you should be carefully determine each monsters.

For example, "Minotaur" is not at all a bad "class" indeed. There maybe objections. But being Large size itself is a big advantage when 3.5e is using "special size mod" for most special attacks and rules for space and reach. And their "class features" includes "immune to Maze", "Never lose one's way" and "Never be flat-footed" , on top of high abilitiy scores.

Yup - emphasis on "never be flat-footed".

They also get threee feats due to monstrous humanoid levels and are proficient with a greataxe.

So with those feats, their size (and reach) and enhanced strength - even without the ability to rage taking power atttack will be absolutely devastating.

And that "scent" ability will pinpoint an invisible foe when within 5 ft (i.e, normal threat range).

They also have a +4 natural armor bonus - which opens the door for several feats that increase that along the way.

Then there is the +4 to spot, listen and search checks - double an elf's bonus.

And the "track" feat. Well it doesn't specifically state they get the feat but it does state that they can "track enemies" which does require the track feat.

Nope - most definitely a very weak creature.

 

[Sylrae]

I missed the never flat footed.

I wasnt saying it was "BAD". Just that the 'class abilities' in my opinion, dont match up in power with 'class abilities' of a 9th or 10 level character. (To justify the loss of HD). I think they match up more with a 6-8th level character, and should not have much of an LA beyone what the HD already take.

 

[irdeggman]

I missed the never flat footed.

I wasnt saying it was "BAD". Just that the 'class abilities' in my opinion, dont match up in power with 'class abilities' of a 9th or 10 level character. (To justify the loss of HD). I think they match up more with a 6-8th level character, and should not have much of an LA beyone what the HD already take.

So it is an 8th level character.

6 HD and +2 LA.

Which is in the ballpark you say is fine correct?

So all is good.

They do get a +8 to Str and a +4 to Con (-4 Int, -2 Cha) and are large in size.

Basic comparisons say that an unbalanced ability score mod is a +1 LA (at least) and being large is also a +1 LA. This does not take into account the "other" abilities mentioned.

 

[Sylrae]

Alright. I was overtired and made a typo. I meant 6-7. I think the Minotaur is slightly weak for it's LA. I dont think it's absurdly weak, but I think one of the LA should be another HD, or that it should just be lowered one. - Probably I would say the second is the better Idea.

I did a comparison, and if you count the fact that its large and that it gets the stat mods, I'd put it a little less than on par with the barbarian at level 8, except I think the barbarian would win with the extra 2 hit dice. maybe 1 would make up the difference. Fighter just gets 5 of bonus feats, so it depends entirely on which feats they take.

If I thought "all was good" I wouldnt have mentioned it, and the fact that I misspoke doesn't actually change my opinion on the matter - believe it or not.

But Anyways. I disagree with some of the LAs, the minotaur is a small example. a bigger example is the succubus. it's got good abilities, but it only has 6 hit dice, which butcher it as a big race. maybe if it had 8. As a spellcaster those hitpoints are much more important, because you have less to spare.

Anyways. I'm done with this conversation, thanks for the info on how to buy off LA, and sorry I disagreed with a few of you guys, but such is life.

Have a good night

 

[irdeggman]

But Anyways. I disagree with some of the LAs, the minotaur is a small example. a bigger example is the succubus. it's got good abilities, but it only has 6 hit dice, which butcher it as a big race. maybe if it had 8. As a spellcaster those hitpoints are much more important, because you have less to spare.

I think the real problem lies more with how spellcasters are in real trouble whenever they multi-class at all.

IMO that is the true root of the problem, not the LA or the racial hit dice.

And for that problem to be resolved it would require a total revamping of the 3.5 rules. Something like a revision or rewriting of all we have come to know, I don't maybe someone could develop a 4th edition to D&D

 

[Shin Okada]

I think the real problem lies more with how spellcasters are in real trouble whenever they multi-class at all.

IMO that is the true root of the problem, not the LA or the racial hit dice.

I tend to agree. Well, basic "official" solution for it is "Practiced Spellcaster" feat. After the introduction of that feat, most multi-classed spellcasters got at least same or close caster level as single class casters (or casters who advanced into some prestige class with full-spellcasting progression) Though they can only cast spells of slightly lower-spell levels, those builds actually works. And I know many players are satisfied by this.

So, if monster spellcaster with high LA is getting a similar problem, how about changing the upper limit of caster level from "your HD" to "your ECL"? Now a drow wizard 18 (with +2 LA/ECL20) can have caster level of 20 with this feat. This is much simpler and less troublesome compensation method comparing to that "buy off LA" option rule, IMHO.

Of course, this is a house rule and has it's own problem. ECL is for PCs and cohorts and basically not for usual NPCs and monsters, thus make an inconsistency.

 

[Sylrae]

I think the real problem lies more with how spellcasters are in real trouble whenever they multi-class at all.

IMO that is the true root of the problem, not the LA or the racial hit dice.

And for that problem to be resolved it would require a total revamping of the 3.5 rules. Something like a revision or rewriting of all we have come to know, I don't maybe someone could develop a 4th edition to D&D

Thing is, I'm doubtful on whether I'm gonna go for 4e. Some of the changes I've heard of I seriously dislike. I'll give it a read, but I'd say its more likely that I'll just take some of the 4e rules that are an improvement and find a way to play a disgusting hybrid of 3.5 and 4e. (I may even make a word document with the full text of my 3.75 rules when they're done.

I have a houserule to help fix spellcasters who multiclass and its relatively simple.

Spellcasting classes that multiclass may add one third of their total level in their other classes to their effective caster level for all spellcasting purposes (Spells Known/Spells per Day/Familiar&Animal Companion Level/Caster Level). For example a fighter 10/ wizard 10 will cast spells as a 13th level wizard, and a cleric 10/sorcerer 10 would cast spells as a 13th level cleric and a 13th level sorcerer. Prestige classes that improve the spellcasting ability of a class a character already has levels in, such as mystic theurge or eldritch knight, improve spellcasting normally and are not counted toward this benefit unless 1/3 is higher than the class’ improvement, in which case the 1/3 is used instead.

and I came up with another thought for LA

Standard LA. You count as X levels higher for all purposes, and gain levels as though trying to go X levels higher than your class levels+ hit dice suggest.

Alternate interpretation. You gain experience as though you were 2 levels higher. So a LA +2 character still gets to level 2 at 1000, but the experience received will be lowered as though they were a level 3 character, so they will get to level 2 after everyone else.

This isn't perfect, but I think it would be good for low LA monsters, like drow. My other thought is that maybe every x number of la move you up on the experience chart for how much you need for your next level as well. maybe 3 gives 1.
so with this idea la 4 makes you get to level 2 at 3000xp, but you gain your xp as slowly as a +4 character

lots of ideas, but I'm thinking a bit of a revision is in order, and I'm not confident in the 4e revision. So I figure maybe coming up with revisions with some other people may work better.