Buying Feats with XP

[Dragonblade275]

Great thoughts, so far, everyone.

I like the ideas presented by EvilBob about delaying the ability to purchase feats until 6th level. Also, fixing the cost at 5,000 XP is not a bad option. It simplifies things a bit. Also, adding a level adjustment for every so many feats is a good idea, but that's another part of my dilemma.

I want to encourage the players to have their characters by feats rather than advancing in levels. The level adjustment idea helps in achieving this goal. But, to give a level adjustment for 4 feats (though probably fair) would seem to me to discourage buying feats a little. I'm thinking that to achieve my goal that the level adjustment shouldn't be applied to the character until he or she has bought more bonus feats than their current level.

In my mind, I'm kinda using the guidelines in the gestalt rules (from Unearthed Arcana) as a baseline. The characters aren't gestalt, but with enough extra feats, they would gain XP as if they were gestalt. For instance, a gestalt Ranger/Fighter is essentially a Ranger with bonus feats. So, treating the CR of the monsters as if it were one rank lower when the character had bought a certain number of bonus feats would be simple enough.

So, here's how I'm viewing it now:

Buying a Feat for XP
A character may buy a feat at any point in their career at 6th level or any level thereafter, so long as they have sufficient XP to spend without reducing their XP below the minimum required for their current character level. Each feat costs 5,000 X.P. A character may buy a number of bonus feats in this manner equal to the character's currect character level.

Example: A 6th level Ranger may by up to 6 bonus feats for 5,000 X.P. each. Upon attaining 7th level, the character may purchase 1 additional feat for 5,000 X.P. (for a total of 7 bonus feats). The 7th level ranger with 7 purchased bonus feats is now at his limit and may not buy another bonus feat until 8th level (see below for an exception).​

The limit on the number of bonus feats that may be purchased with XP may be breached at the cost of the character gaining a +1 level adjustment. The character may purchase any number of feats after accepting the +1 level adjustment without further penalty. This level adjustment is removed if the character's level once again meets or exceeds the number of purchased bonus feats.​

 

[Pyrex]

The major problem with both proposals (250*Level or Flat 5000xp) is that the value of a feat is not static.

In the first case, you'll see characters front-loading feats like mad to get all the low-level prereqs for the feats they want later out of the way.

OTOH, Toughness will never, ever be worth 5000xp. At a cost of 5000xp you will see players spending XP to gain feats just about as often as you see them spend the XP to cast Wish; which means just about never.

Instead of either an XP cost or an LA (or three) why not build a PrC that grants bonus feats? Heck you could probably promote Expert from NPC status to PC status by granting a bonus feat every level. Or give no good saves, 0.5BAB, 2Skill/level and give *two* bonus feats/level.

 

[Dragonblade275]

Unfortunately, you do have a point, Pyrex. I think I'm going to put this idea on hold for a while. The simplest solution would be to treat all characters as if they were gestalted with the fighter class as far as gaining feats goes (but without the restrictions of the fighter bonus feats in exchange for not gaining the other benefits of being a fighter- BAB, HD, good fort save) and then just award XP a little more slowly.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

Well, Buy The Numbers has the following scheme:

Purchased	XP cost	Total Cost
1		50	50
2		100	150
3		300	450
4		600	1050
5		1000	2050
6		1500	3550
7		2100	5650
8		2800	8450
9		3600	12050
10		4500	16550
11		5500	22050
12		6600	28650
13		7800	36450
14		9100	45550
15		10500	56050
16		12000	68050
17		13600	81650
18		15300	96950
19		17100	114050
20		19000	133050

For feats beyond the 20 feat, the XP Cost to purchase the Feat is 50 XP times the number of the Feat times one less than the number of the Feat (e.g., the 21st Feat has an XP Cost of 50 XP times 21 times 20 or 21,000 XP); alternatively, add 100 XP times the number of the character’s total current Feats to the cost of the last Feat the character purchased to find the cost of his next Feat (e.g., a character with 20 Feats paid 19,000 XP for the 20th Feat; the 21st Feat costs him 20 x 100 XP plus 19,000 XP or 21,000 XP).

The text quoted above for the way feats are costed is entirely Open Game Content, so nobody needs to be concerned that I'm taking away from the author or anything.

Not sure how helpful that really is to you. I personally happen to like Buy the Numbers and the way the costs for various things (Barb's Uncanny Dodge is worth 600 XP, Improved is worth 1,500) seems reasonable to me.

 

[Dragonblade275]

Thanks. I may have to check out Buy the Numbers. It may be just what the doctor ordered.

 

[Pyrex]

Well, Buy The Numbers has the following scheme:

Those values seem *really* cheap to me. (at the low end)

The first 3 (possibly 5) are simply a no-brainer for virtually any character.

At L10, taking an effective LA of 1 (i.e., expending <10kxp) nets you *8* feats.

After that the cost spirals out of control.

I'm pretty sure that in my group every single player would elect to purchase [3-6] feats and ignore the rest of the table, which tells me the distribution is wrong.

 

[Aegir]

Those values seem *really* cheap to me. (at the low end)

Keep in mind that Buy the Numbers converts the d20 leveling system and breaks it down so you buy all the components of leveling with XP, instead of leveling.

I would agree its too cheap to use as an add-on to a more standard d20 game.

 

[jdrakeh]

Keep in mind that Buy the Numbers converts the d20 leveling system and breaks it down so you buy all the components of leveling with XP, instead of leveling.

This was actually the biggest issue that I had with Buy the Numbers (and Point Buy Numbers). . .

Experience Points are used to purchase, well . . . everything in Point Puy Numbers. From basic attribute ratings to feats, if you can conceive it, your character can buy it (providing that they have enough experience points). This is where the first signs of mechanical imbalance start creeping in - despite a claim of walking a road that "balances the need for balance [sic] and the need for flexibility", Point Buy Numbers places no restrictions on how or when experience points may be spent, past not allowing players to purchase something until they have the necessary experience points to do so.

While this doesn't sound like a problem in theory, in practice it throws mechanical balance out of the window. If your character has the requisite amount of experience, they may purchase anything they like (e.g., more attribute points, new feats, different types of hit dice, etc.) whenever they like. There are no mechanical checks or balances to ensure that a character who slays a bunch of monsters in one afternoon doesn't suddenly become more handsome that very night, for example. In and of itself, this wouldn't be a huge problem, except that in the preface, the author clearly states that Point Buy Numbers was designed to sidestep these pitfalls that (the author claims) are a product of level and class-based character creation systems.

Now, that said, it is true that higher ability ratings and/or more powerful feats do have higher costs in Point Buy Numbers. That said, this does not necessarily facilitate balance, as the pricing scheme is obviously based upon a very specific experience progression system that the author has worked out in their head - and opted not to present within the pages of Point Buy Numbers. It's pretty much a given that the chances of every Game Master in the world awarding experience in this specific manner are effectively nonexistent - and unfortunately, any departure from this assumed progression system will throw the tenuous balance imposed by the pricing scheme in Point Buy Numbers entirely out of whack.

Finally, note that characters who begin play at Level 1 in a game that utilizes the Modern OGL rules (which Point Buy Numbers is designed to supplement) has no experience points by default - not a one. They have to adventure before they earn any. This sheds some light on the fact that a beginning character in Point Buy Numbers is not at all the same thing as a beginning character in the set of rules that it is designed to supplement. Not only does this again raise a question of exactly what experience progression system the author has based the point costs in Point Buy Numbers on, but emphasizes the discrepancies between what the system purports to accomplish and what it actually *does* accomplish.

I'm currently reading a Lulu product entitled "Eclipse" that gives players X Character Points per level, augmented by INT and age. These points are spent in much the same way as XP in Point Buy Numbers or Buy the Numbers, while keeping the default d20 XP progression 100% intact and functioning as intended. I think that this solution, though arguably less daring, actually works much better.

 

[Scurvy_Platypus]

First, I think you should be fair... your review is really for Point Buy Numbers, which is something of a hatchet job of Buy The Numbers. I personally found Point Buy Numbers to be rather grating in a number of cases, and it's not exactly clear to me why the author chose to make the changes that he did from Buy The Numbers.

For a Enworld review of Buy The Numbers, you can go here: http://www.enworld.org/reviews.php?do=review&reviewid=2011414

And you can read different 2 other reviews by RPGNow staff (both of them five star ratings) here: http://enworld.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=2909

Note: The RPGNow staff review by Chris Gath, and the Enworld review are the same review.

From the Introduction of Buy The Numbers (which really is a different animal than Point Buy Numbers):

I’m quite proud of this work, even if it is a very dry read. If you’re willing to try to customize characters EXACTLY the way you want them, this work is for you. It’s an exciting concept, though unfortunately the execution and the math involved makes things come off very dry. This was an interesting project for me; coming on the heels of an attempt to streamline and simplify the Core system by removing options, I’ve now tried the exact opposite approach - to break it down into its component parts and make it possible to create hideously complex combinations. I hope the reader will forgive the dryness and instead focus on the options and flexibility it represents.

Snip of some math bits, and then:

I have tried to provide “variants” to the “basics” of the rules included here (in Chapter 1). The “base method” I have chosen may not (in fact, probably will not) reflect everyone’s views on what the correct treatment is; I have tried to offer alternatives where possible, with explanations of the ramifications of using the variants.

I have tried to give you some examples in Appendix A of why you would even want to use these rules (as a player or a GM).

Finally, I would like to issue a warning – if the “Core” rules are susceptible to “power-gaming” by picking just the right combinations of things, these rules are probably even more susceptible. Characters can narrow their focus exceptionally well under these rules. GMs should not feel bad at all about imposing restrictions on what a player can and can’t do. Probably the best way to do this is to require characters to make at least one purchase from five of the seven areas described in Chapter One before adding another Hit Die, and capping all “appropriate levels,” “Base Attack Bonuses, etc.” as less than or equal to Hit Dice. These two restrictions go a long way toward curbing abuses, but limit the flexibility of the system considerably. I would suggest that GMs start by giving players flexibility an only impose restrictions if the players start going overboard.

The author of Buy The Numbers also points out:

The first and most important thing to understand about the Buy the Number system is that it does away with the concept of “levels” as they are normally understood in the Core Rules. However, because so much depends upon levels (balance of encounters, appropriate treasures, etc.) it is important to know about how powerful a Buy the Numbers character is. This rating is called the character’s effective level and represents the character level that a Buy the Numbers character’s power is about equal to. Simply enough, it can be expressed by the character level that would have been obtained by a character who had earned the same number of experience points (XP) as the character; thus, a Buy the Numbers character who has earned 4,000 XP has an effective level of 4, just as a character created under the Core Rules who had earned 4,000 XP would be 4th level.

As well as:

This also means that the GM must be a little more fluid; a 4th level character with 6,000 XP remains the same when he has 9,999 XP; by contrast, a character in the Buy the Numbers system with 9,999 XP has considerably more power than a character with 6,000 XP.
Gradations and shadings of level become more important, so the GM must understand that not all “effectively 4th level characters” are created equal! Some (at the 6,000 XP mark) are closer to 3rd “level” characters in ability while others (at the 9,999 XP mark) are closer to 5th level characters. GMs must be prepared to handle characters that are constantly improving – what stymied a character last session may be easily handled this session by a new ability that has been added, even if the GM awarded only a few hundred XP last session! It keeps everyone on their toes, but I hope the flexibility and constant sense of accomplishment makes it worthwhile.

Scattered throughout the text are numerous alternatives and suggestions on how to handle various things and what some of those effects might be.

I'd also kinda suggest that if a person is actually mucking about with their game at this level, they really need to have a clue about what sort of thing they're trying to effect in their game.

On the whole, I'm disappointed in Point Buy Numbers, but I really feel Buy The Numbers doesn't deserve the same treatment. Point Buy Numbers seems to be a pointless hatchet job of Buy The Numbers. BtN only really claims to be trying to let folks go really wild in making their character be _exactly_ what they want. It's also built from the standard d20 rules, and not d20 Modern like Point Buy Numbers was supposedly adapted for.

C'mon, Buy the Numbers was Nominated for a 2005 ENnie Award... it's got to have some redeeming features. I think it's the best $5 I ever spent on a d20 product.

Sorry for the threadjack, I just wish that such a groovy product didn't seem to fly beneath so many people's radar.

 

[Nonlethal Force]

I'll second a vote for Buy the Numbers. If you want to see a more reasonable answer as to why ... see my response in the poll in the General Forum on how quickly characters are gaining feats in various games.

As to the above critique on Point Buy Numbers (and I suppose Buy the Numbers) ... I can only comment on Buy the Numbers. With regard to that system, I would have to say that I totally agree with it's assessment of the possibility of abuse but totally disagree that it is any problem at all. No way can this abuse not be handled by the DM ... and the abuse quickly becomes self-policing and the players learn that characters built on abuses die quickly. Any DM that is worth playing under is going to be able to take advantage of any method the players try to abuse the system.

For example, suppose a player wants to jack up the BAB, so they buy two hit die worth of hitpoints before they technically have enough experience to be a second level character in a traditional D&D game. In order to do so, they'll not only have to spent more XP than "normal" in order to get those hit die, but they'll be doing so at a disproportionately high rate for their equivalent level in a normal game. In other words, to get those hit die, they'll likely have to make twice as much in sacrifices as they gain in hit die.

For example, if they were trying to build a barbarian (with an XP equivalency to that of a first level) but wanted two d12s instead of one ... they'll likely have to decrease what they spend in saves, class abilities, or skills. Any one of those can be exploited by a DM .. much less probably having to skimp in two of those areas.

Our group has been modifying some of the mathematical progressions found in Buy the Numbers because when we actually built all the WotC base classes we discovered that Buy the Numbers actually makes higher level characters harder to make equivalent to a traditional game. IE, you typically need more XP to make a 20th level character in Buy the Numbers system than in a traditional game. That right there tells me that Buy the Numbers is not highly out of balance. The flexibility issue is balanced by the slightly heightened cost.

I'd recommend spending the $5 and buying the pdf. You may find that your group (like mine) is more than willing to chuck normal class based D&D out the window so that they can start building the characters they truly want to play.