C&Ds for Online D&D 5E Character Generators

Ed Friedlander reports that WotC has asked him to remove his D&D character generators. Ed ran the generators at his site, Pathguy.com, including a D&D 5E character generator. His Pathfinder RPG character generator is still running. Thanks to Slayyne for the scoop (who also reports that at least one other site has also closed). [Update: while the actual request has not been shared, others have reported that these are very amicable requests].

Ed Friedlander reports that WotC has asked him to remove his D&D character generators. Ed ran the generators at his site, Pathguy.com, including a D&D 5E character generator. His Pathfinder RPG character generator is still running. Thanks to Slayyne for the scoop (who also reports that at least one other site has also closed). [Update: while the actual request has not been shared, others have reported that these are very amicable requests].

You can see his closing note here.

"After almost two decades, Wizards of the Coast has asked me to remove my online character generators. I appreciate the many people who have written and thanked me for my work, and I hope you will continue to enjoy the hobby.

As a physician and gamer, I've supported and defended the hobby, and helped concerned families understand its value.

The "Dungeons and Dragons" phenomenon has encouraged young people to study other cultures. It is a game in which people work together to accomplish a meaningful goal. Characters even define themselves in terms of their good morals and their ethics. On one level, it simulates the spiritual warfare described in the Christian scriptures and in the Arthurian legends on which the game is based. I am proud that I was able to make a contribution.

My generator for Pathfinder will of course remain online. Click here for more information about this role-playing game.

May your dice come up 20s.

Ed Friedlander MD
"

Back in November, the D&D Tools website suffered a similar fate, as have a couple of spellcard websites. While WotC appears to be largely easygoing as far as fan creations are concerned, they do take action when content from their products is copied or distributed.

Ed's character generator created characters by selecting a number of options, and output a character sheet similar to below. I'm not all that familiar with it, so I don't know what text, if any, it may have borrowed from the official rules.

As yet, there's no license (Open Gaming or otherwise) for D&D 5th Edition (although WotC does intend to do so), although a number of publishers have published books anyway using the older Open Gaming License for D&D 3E and 3.5.

What is interesting to hear is that some people who have received such requests describe them as very amicable. Toxic Rat says "Speaking from personal experience, I received a very nice email asking that I take down particular content owned by WotC. No threats, no warnings of legal action, just a request to honor their copyright." That's great to hear.

dwarfey.jpg

 

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aramis erak

Legend
Actually the ogl only has two benefits: 1) it is a warranty you won't be sued by WotC, 2) it allows you to liberally copy entire sections from the srd verbatim. Appart form it, it doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do by fair use, in fact you renounce certain rights when using the OGL.

But from a certain point of view it made a lot of sense to do it:
1) It created goodwill in the aftermath of the later TSR days, where the company went so lawsuit happy on fans and 3PP.
2) Many people don't get copyright, so it lets them have a certain degree of control over 3PP by restricting them from doing certain things.
3) By the wording of it, it was a way for Ryan Dancey to make sure no company could ever safely kill the game.

3 is wrong.

3 should be: It was Ryan and Monte ensuring that they could take their work with them if they left Wizards.
Monte's made bank on it...
 

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delericho

Legend
Actually the ogl only has two benefits: 1) it is a warranty you won't be sued by WotC, 2) it allows you to liberally copy entire sections from the srd verbatim. Appart form it, it doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do by fair use, in fact you renounce certain rights when using the OGL.

But from a certain point of view it made a lot of sense to do it:
1) It created goodwill in the aftermath of the later TSR days, where the company went so lawsuit happy on fans and 3PP.
2) Many people don't get copyright, so it lets them have a certain degree of control over 3PP by restricting them from doing certain things.
3) By the wording of it, it was a way for Ryan Dancey to make sure no company could ever safely kill the game.

4) It lets people support the game with third-party products secure in the knowledge that WoTc won't try to make trouble for them.

While the law may allow third-party products without, the only way to be sure is to try it, have WotC contest it, and fight it through the courts to a victory. Virtually nobody in the RPG sphere has the resources to go against WotC in that manner, where even a victory is liable to be devastating.

The security that comes from knowing you're in the clear is huge, and let to the explosion of third-party products.
 


MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
3 is wrong.

3 should be: It was Ryan and Monte ensuring that they could take their work with them if they left Wizards.
Monte's made bank on it...

fair enough.

4) It lets people support the game with third-party products secure in the knowledge that WoTc won't try to make trouble for them.
Another way to say 1) n_n

But check this http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_/TTnT_209.phtml , it is illuminating. And Kenzer is my hero.
 

delericho

Legend
Another way to say 1) n_n

I would argue that it's related by slightly different: one talks about goodwill where four talks about assurance for the risk-averse.

But check this http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_/TTnT_209.phtml , it is illuminating. And Kenzer is my hero.

An interesting read, but as she notes the only way to be sure is for a case to come to judgement. It looks like third party supplements should be possible without any license at all... but you'd have to be willing to fight WotC through the courts to judgement, and who really has the time or resources to do that? Especially when any potential gain is going to be very small indeed.

(Very important disclaimer: I am not a lawyer!)
 

pemerton

Legend
the OGL states "You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark."

Some might argue that fair use overrides the license. Others would argue the license requires you to forego that particular right in order to benefit from the other parts of it. I'm no lawyer, so I wouldn't know.
I'm not an American contract lawyer, but I would be pretty surprised if contract law in any American jurisdiction did not permit giving up fair use rights as part of a contractual bargain.

Actually the ogl only has two benefits: 1) it is a warranty you won't be sued by WotC, 2) it allows you to liberally copy entire sections from the srd verbatim. Appart form it, it doesn't let you do anything you couldn't do by fair use, in fact you renounce certain rights when using the OGL.
I think when you say "it only has two benefits" that's a bit like saying "permission to enter my house only gives you the benefit that if you do come in I won't call the police to force you to leave". Ie, it's a pretty big "only". Fair use would not permit anyone to verbatim reproduce the text found in the WotC's SRDs.

The OGL also is not a warranty that you won't be sued by WotC. It is an agreement with WotC (and any other contributors of OGC whose OGC you use) that they permit to use that OGC, in respect of which they enjoy certain IP rights, subject to certain conditions. If you violate those conditions then you are absolutely liable to be sued.

But check this http://www.skotos.net/articles/TTnT_/TTnT_209.phtml , it is illuminating. And Kenzer is my hero.
It looks like third party supplements should be possible without any license at all... but you'd have to be willing to fight WotC through the courts to judgement
Third party supplements are absolutely possible without licence - provided that you don't violate WotC's IP rights.

That means not infringing their trademark rights - which shouldn't be too hard - and not reproducing their copyrighted material. This is what I think is harder, because the boundaries between non-copyrightable mechanics and copyrightable story and expression are relatively vague within the context of an RPG.

The author of the blog linked to upthread suggests that TSR settled its lawsuits because it thought it wouldn't win. In my view this is silly. Nearly all private litigation settles before coming to court, often on the courthouse steps. Running a court case costs time and money, and there are no guarantees. It's also in the interests of a large company like TSR or WotC to manage potential competitors via contractual relationships, where they can negotiate the terms, rather than via litigation.
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
I'm not an American contract lawyer, but I would be pretty surprised if contract law in any American jurisdiction did not permit giving up fair use rights as part of a contractual bargain.

You're right. There are very few things in this world so special that you can't agree to not do them. You can agree to do or not do plenty of things in a contract, and be legally bound by that agreement. You're legally allowed to not eat ice cream, but if you sign a contract saying you won't eat ice cream, you can't eat ice cream.
 

pemerton

Legend
You can agree to do or not do plenty of things in a contract, and be legally bound by that agreement. You're legally allowed to not eat ice cream, but if you sign a contract saying you won't eat ice cream, you can't eat ice cream.
Whether or not an injunction will issue to stop you eating ice cream is an interesting question! (If not, the plaintiff will be confined to damages.)
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
Whether or not an injunction will issue to stop you eating ice cream is an interesting question! (If not, the plaintiff will be confined to damages.)


They can cause a whole lot of financial hardship in the process of seeking those so-called damages. You might be put right off your ice cream.
 


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