Call of Cthulhu d20 Preservation Society

arwink said:
Because, as simple as BRP is, it isn't necessarily a great system for character development and long-term play.

Leveling up is critical to character development in DnD. In fact, the desire to get more powerful characters drives the game. So what does the DM have to do? Beef up the oposition ro mach the PCs level.

In CoC (a least when I've played it) - knowledge is power, and the quest for knowledge drives the game (thats why PCs are called investigators). When a game runs well, skills, feats, money etc etc become largely irrelavant.


arwink said:
I'm part of a group that's currently going through one of the published 12-part campaigns using the BRP system, and it's frustrating the hell out of everyone. In the second session we learn that singing is an important skill for us to have even a remote chance of making it through the campaign

Sounds rough. Although I think the fault lies with the scenario rather than the system. Perhaps there is another solution. Maybe you need ot hire a singer (after all most people can't sing, Xp from successful adventures are unlikely to change that).


arwink said:
Another big difference that places me in the d20 camp for long-term play is the introduction of rules like take 10 or take 20. In BRP, if there's a clue that absolutely needs to be found, it either hinges on a single die roll (Spot hidden, library use, whatever) which could be failed or the Keeper is forced to engineer a situation that reliese heavily on Keeper-Fait.

I've found the opposite. As the base for say 'spot hidden' is 25%, its likely someone in a group of 4 investigators will make the roll. If you really analyse it, success is highly likely, the die roll is only to add tension and give the players the illusion of achievement. Good scenarios should only allow randomness to give the player a slight edge. If the scerario grinds to a hold over a missed roll, there is something wrong with its design.
 

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vortex said:
Sounds rough. Although I think the fault lies with the scenario rather than the system.

Agreed, but the variable quality of supposedly professional Cthulhu modules produced by Chaosium is a big indicator that competent modules can be difficult to write for Cthulhu and even harder to determine for a casual keeper. This applies double for long-term games - see Chaosium's own note about full-length campaigns under their writers guidelines.

I've found the opposite. As the base for say 'spot hidden' is 25%, its likely someone in a group of 4 investigators will make the roll. If you really analyse it, success is highly likely, the die roll is only to add tension and give the players the illusion of achievement.

Dice are fickle. I can think of twice in the last year where the campaign has ground to a halt because everyone in our group of five failed a roll - and this includes characters that have scores of 90% in some of the Cthulhu critical skills. On average, yes, things work out. I want the safety net of take 20, which ensures that if the dice go against the players they can still get the details they need. Tension can be generated by time constraints and interruptions to the search check, it cannot be regained once a blown die roll means the players have lost the clue forever.

Good scenarios should only allow randomness to give the player a slight edge. If the scerario grinds to a hold over a missed roll, there is something wrong with its design.

Again, I'll point to the variable quality of Chaosium modules here. Espeically once you get past the one-off session of attrition-based horrror. And for all its simplicity, my expreience with the BRP system has suggested that it can be downright horrible in the hands of someone who hasn't yet grasped the genre of Cthulhu. Simple systems are great for players, but often I've seen DM's flounder with the lack of guidance inherent in the rules.

Again, I have nothing against the BRP system - for short-term stuff where character development and gradual skill acquisition aren't essential to the plot it's a downright perfect game system. It's simple and easy to throw at people for a one off, and the rules perfectly capture the sense of impending doom coming up as the heroes grip on sanity is slowly stripped away. In a set-peice game where sanity and character attrition is expected I don't want a sense of character development or improvement - it's likely to thwart the feel I'm building. It's just not the feel I'm looking for in a continious campaign that runs for twelve months or longer.

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vortex said:
Leveling up is critical to character development in DnD. In fact, the desire to get more powerful characters drives the game. So what does the DM have to do? Beef up the oposition ro mach the PCs level.

I don't necessarily think the process of leveling up leads to considerable power-boosts in CoC d20. With the Massive Damage rules, hit points are essentially meaningless because even a 20th level character can die if bitten by a dog or shot with a handgun. The combat abilities, for the most part, are much slower.

What's important to me is that the players can add a +1 bonus to the characters skills at the end of every session or two - and they get to control where those points go. To be honest you could ditch the BRP Call advancement rules and offer me 10% worth of skill ranks that can be added wherever I want at the end of every second session and it'll address my complaint just as effectively. I could even live with a short-list of relevant skills that could be improved. I just don't like being at the mercy of the dice when determining how my character has developed as a result of his experiences.
 
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vortex said:
Leveling up is critical to character development in DnD. In fact, the desire to get more powerful characters drives the game. So what does the DM have to do? Beef up the oposition ro mach the PCs level.

[my emphasis]

DnD, yes; but plenty of d20 system games and settings need not be focused on that aspect of character development. It is trivially easy to change the d20 rules to allow skill rank acquisition without leveling up (as a side note, however, I make that clear to players at the outset; I would play like this in any game - and any system - if the stories were good). That's really all you need to get character development without the pitfalls of increasing combat competency.
 

vortex said:
Leveling up is critical to character development in DnD. In fact, the desire to get more powerful characters drives the game. So what does the DM have to do? Beef up the oposition ro mach the PCs level.

Well first, Call of Cthulhu d20 is not DnD. As a Keeper who is running two COC d20 games, I don't see leveling characters as what drives the game. It is more of a reward for good play. I am running a d20 COC Masks of Nyarlothotep game in which the players are going to level soon. They have been in a total of three combats. One, they basically let a group of cultists escape Two, they were involved in a pitched battle with some cultists, and Three, they fled from two zombies. But they also have been doing a ton of investigation and role-play.

Also if you throw a monster or group of cultists at a group it's not some let's kill it and take their treasure enterprise like you would see DnD. It is usually how do we get out of here alive or we have to do our best to stop this evil even at the cost of our lives. You can get the same "feel" from a d20 game as a BRP but in my humble opinion the d20 rule set is just better and in fact more seamless in play.
 
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D20 CoC is about as tactical as my left hand. You can't compare it to DnD, sorry, it doesn't need minis, has no Attacks of Oppurtunity and is less combat focused than many BRP fans want to paint it.

Jason
 

teitan said:
D20 CoC is about as tactical as my left hand.
Okay, so we pit d20 CoC against Teitan's Left Hand in a game of Squad Leader (the game of tactical unit combat, I believe it says RIGHT ON THE BOX) and see who wins!

My money's on d20 CoC!
 

Something for CoC D20

This was on the front page: there is some support for CoC D20...

one thing, skimming throuhg this, I noticed that some of the mythos beings had divine ranks...something now found in the SRD, but not original D20 CoC.
 

I think it's entirely in the tone set by the game-master. There are essential notions in a game's system, I think, that can influence how it can often be played ... D&D, for instance, is hard to play an investigative or skill-centric game because so few of the classes get many skill points. It focuses alot on combat abilities. But a group of Rangers, Bards, Rogues and Wizards might be able to play and enjoy such a game handily.

I run a Dark*Matter d20 game. D20 Modern is a mix between skill-centric and combat-centric class and feat structures, and can certainly do combat-centric if people want to play it that way. Yet I run very good, very tense occult investigations ... sometimes in spite of myself. :) My players are so into the feeling of unknown threats and investigating that I can spring an encounter whose EL is quite low, but which has them falling over themselves to flee. The EL doesn't matter, it's all about the description and the feeling of threat.

--fje
 

Arise from thy watery tomb...

Haven't seen this on the boards, from Mike Mearls "Things I have written"

Projects that Never Were

As a reward for scrolling to the end, here's some projects that never were that I can talk about.

Call of Cthulhu d20 Licensed Game Line: A complete game line that I was to serve as developer and primary designer - most likely sole writer, given that I can write a ton and I'm insanely picky about who I'd hire. We had plans for an Antarctic sourcebook, a Miskatonic University book that didn't suck, and more.

He also has some CoC D20 stuff on his webpage (though that has been mentioned on the boards, at least breifly)
 

Gomez said:
My name is Gomez and I play Call of Cthulhu d20!

I use D20 Call of Cthulhu! ;) Mostly in my games I go for a different magic feel than standard Dungeons & Dragons core rules and the magic rules in D20 CoC provide the help I need (with a little tweaking to remove sanity rules).
 

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