Can I just say I HATE when the DM is being evasive just for the sake of being evasive. Even worse when the answer is, the adventure is unclear, the DM doesn't know the answer, can't think of a good one, but doesn't want to admit he doesn't know!
Critical Role Call of the Netherdeep playthrough commentary [spoilers]
- Thread starter Paul Farquhar
- Start date
Can I just say I HATE when the DM is being evasive just for the sake of being evasive. Even worse when the answer is, the adventure is unclear, the DM doesn't know the answer, can't think of a good one, but doesn't want to admit he doesn't know!
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Yeah, I played Question as being only too willing to talk about her research at great length to anyone willing to listen. The only thing she was evasive about was her chickening out of going into Betrayer's Rise. Maybe meta-knowledge? "Wait, I'm an NPC, aren't I? I don't have PC plot armour!"
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session Six
Chapter 3. Betrayers' Rise level 1
The driders where a vicious fight, and the stained-glass window puzzle was vicious too, when one of the PCs failed their dance check (note that they assumed a different character had to dance each time, but this isn't actually specified. The alternative clue was basically impossible to find, since no one had see invisibility. So it was trial and error, and a shed-load of psychic damage. I think they would have been better taking the smashy smashy option! Fortunately, they did a lot better with the supplicants' pit, since the bard had calm emotions.
Generally, I think this dungeon relies too much on you must know this spell to proceed. The party lost other options due to not knowing Abyssal or Comprehend Languages. It feels almost Tomb of Horrors-ish.
Chapter 3. Betrayers' Rise level 1
The driders where a vicious fight, and the stained-glass window puzzle was vicious too, when one of the PCs failed their dance check (note that they assumed a different character had to dance each time, but this isn't actually specified. The alternative clue was basically impossible to find, since no one had see invisibility. So it was trial and error, and a shed-load of psychic damage. I think they would have been better taking the smashy smashy option! Fortunately, they did a lot better with the supplicants' pit, since the bard had calm emotions.
Generally, I think this dungeon relies too much on you must know this spell to proceed. The party lost other options due to not knowing Abyssal or Comprehend Languages. It feels almost Tomb of Horrors-ish.
Parmandur
Book-Friend
It's amusing to me when people set up Matt Mercer as a paragon of "newfangled kids" playstyles, when his aesthetic is super AD&D...
Paul Farquhar
Legend
I don't think Matt Mercer wrote each individual encounter in this adventure, but his playstyle, with lots of detailed characters, has been around from the start. Betrayers' Rise has a very old school feel to it and could easily be expanded into a megadungeon, complete with base camp town right outside the door.
The rapid levelling speed (if you play as written) is very modern, but I think that is more down to WotC than Mercer.
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 7
Chapter 3-4
Completed chapter 3. Required a fair bit of improvisation to keep things on track, but ended with the party in Ank'MorporkHarel, still with the Jewel of McGuffin, looking to join the Allegiance of Allsight. They are still friends with the Kill Stealers, who are going to try and infiltrate the Vermillion Dream. There is still the slight complication of one of the party members already being a member of the third faction.
The party where pretty depleted by the time they reached the final confrontation. If it had come down to a fight the fresh tier 2 Rivals would probably have won.
The tonal transition from Chapter 3 to 4 was jarring, and I ended the session a little early just so the players could get used to being in a completely different situation. I have a feeling they had different writers for each chapter. There is a difficulty drop in Chapter 4 too.
Time for Chapter 3: 8 hours
Chapter 3-4
Completed chapter 3. Required a fair bit of improvisation to keep things on track, but ended with the party in Ank'
The party where pretty depleted by the time they reached the final confrontation. If it had come down to a fight the fresh tier 2 Rivals would probably have won.
The tonal transition from Chapter 3 to 4 was jarring, and I ended the session a little early just so the players could get used to being in a completely different situation. I have a feeling they had different writers for each chapter. There is a difficulty drop in Chapter 4 too.
Time for Chapter 3: 8 hours
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
Just generally fleshing out Ank'Harel, and have noticed a combat encounter on the Allsight faction track takes place in a canal. There is no map in that section, but there is a map in the Cobalt Soul faction track that has an otherwise redundant stretch of canal. I assume there was meant to be a reference to that map that got lost in editing. Didn't maps used to have figure numbers in the olden days?
I'm dropping in The Temple of the Gilded Lily from Candlekeep Mysteries in place of a spa that is briefly mentioned. I'm not plot-hooking it though, so the party will only encounter it if they decide they want to visit a spa.
I'm dropping in The Temple of the Gilded Lily from Candlekeep Mysteries in place of a spa that is briefly mentioned. I'm not plot-hooking it though, so the party will only encounter it if they decide they want to visit a spa.
MockingBird
Hero
Are there any maps you could lift from the Wildmount adventures to use? I'm assuming you have it just disregard if you dont.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
The party isn't in Wildemount any more, Toto.
I'm not short of maps, it's just that some that are included are not well referenced.
Chapter 4 is mostly social pillar anyway.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
One map that isn't included is the Luck's Run Casino. I don't expect to need it, since it's in the Vermilion Dream faction track, where the PCs are expected to try and stop a heist (Oceans Three). I'm very tempted to rewrite this as a Veil (local Thieves' Guild) faction mission, with the PCs commissioned to pull off the heist. Which would pit them directly against the Rivals, providing security.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 8
Chapter 4
The party spent a day familiarising themselves with the new city. This called for quite a bit of creating content on the fly. I had to come up the party's first encounter with coffee, descriptions of the road surface, and a details of a local taxi. I'm glad I preped the spa from Candlekeep Mysteries, one of the PCs is a princess, and insisted on staying at the poshest place in the city. One of the PCs has expressed an interest in entering the arena, so I will try and prep some sidequests for the Scarbearers faction for next time. This pacing of this chapter felt better than the rest of the adventure, and the city has lots of flavour, but requires both a lot of additional preparation and improvisation during play.
Chapter 4
The party spent a day familiarising themselves with the new city. This called for quite a bit of creating content on the fly. I had to come up the party's first encounter with coffee, descriptions of the road surface, and a details of a local taxi. I'm glad I preped the spa from Candlekeep Mysteries, one of the PCs is a princess, and insisted on staying at the poshest place in the city. One of the PCs has expressed an interest in entering the arena, so I will try and prep some sidequests for the Scarbearers faction for next time. This pacing of this chapter felt better than the rest of the adventure, and the city has lots of flavour, but requires both a lot of additional preparation and improvisation during play.
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 9
Interlude
The players have been side-tracked by The Price of Beauty from Candlekeep Mysteries. I'm not sure if they realise it's not part of the original adventure.
Interlude
The players have been side-tracked by The Price of Beauty from Candlekeep Mysteries. I'm not sure if they realise it's not part of the original adventure.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 11
Chapter 4 (Still)
This really is a very different style of play to the rest of the adventure. Very open, and requires a lot of creation from the DM to make it work. The city is well described and very interesting, but lacks encounters, to without work from the DM there is little for the players to actually do. The faction quests are short, sketchy and easy in terms of combat, compared with the early stuff in the adventure. I'm running the players through the Allsight and Cobalt Soul quests, since one of the PCs is already a Cobalt Soul monk. They are also hearing about the Consortium quests second hand from the rivals. The Allsight are really tight in terms of rewards! The levelling speed is way different - changing from 2 levels a session to 4 sessions without levelling.
Chapter 4 (Still)
This really is a very different style of play to the rest of the adventure. Very open, and requires a lot of creation from the DM to make it work. The city is well described and very interesting, but lacks encounters, to without work from the DM there is little for the players to actually do. The faction quests are short, sketchy and easy in terms of combat, compared with the early stuff in the adventure. I'm running the players through the Allsight and Cobalt Soul quests, since one of the PCs is already a Cobalt Soul monk. They are also hearing about the Consortium quests second hand from the rivals. The Allsight are really tight in terms of rewards! The levelling speed is way different - changing from 2 levels a session to 4 sessions without levelling.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 13
Chapter 4
Finally completed chapter 4! Whilst I've been trying to stick to "as written" as much as possible to make this a fair test, I reckon it's pretty much impossible to run chapter 4 without adding some supplemental material, even if it's only downtime activities. As written, several days to a week pass between each faction quests, and adventurers don't like to sit around doing nothing. I found the quests quite good for gradually advancing the plot, but I think the players felt they were too light on combat. Whilst it was attempting to make the location feel exotic, there are a lot of unpronounceable names in this chapter, and far too many NPCs for the players to keep track of.
Time for chapter 4: about 15 hours.
Chapter 5
By the time the players entered the drowned city they were itching for a fight, but things still start out very talky. It might be more fighty for an "evil" party fighting their way past the Allsight faction guards. The players experienced their first taste of ruidium corruption. I'm not sure about the exhaustion mechanic, it's not one of my favourite 5e rules.
Chapter 4
Finally completed chapter 4! Whilst I've been trying to stick to "as written" as much as possible to make this a fair test, I reckon it's pretty much impossible to run chapter 4 without adding some supplemental material, even if it's only downtime activities. As written, several days to a week pass between each faction quests, and adventurers don't like to sit around doing nothing. I found the quests quite good for gradually advancing the plot, but I think the players felt they were too light on combat. Whilst it was attempting to make the location feel exotic, there are a lot of unpronounceable names in this chapter, and far too many NPCs for the players to keep track of.
Time for chapter 4: about 15 hours.
Chapter 5
By the time the players entered the drowned city they were itching for a fight, but things still start out very talky. It might be more fighty for an "evil" party fighting their way past the Allsight faction guards. The players experienced their first taste of ruidium corruption. I'm not sure about the exhaustion mechanic, it's not one of my favourite 5e rules.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 14
Chapter 5, continued
The party had a real tough time with a regenerating giant mutant shark (with a psychic damage aura). It's one of those encounters where you need the right spells to deal with it. No one had radiant damage or Chill Touch, no one had Intellect Fortress. Even a champion fighter would have been useful! In the end they hit it with Hypnotic Pattern and swam away as fast as they could. I see an element of "if you don't have the right thing you are screwed" in quite a lot of encounters in this adventure. Bad thing? Good thing? You decide.
Chapter 5, continued
The party had a real tough time with a regenerating giant mutant shark (with a psychic damage aura). It's one of those encounters where you need the right spells to deal with it. No one had radiant damage or Chill Touch, no one had Intellect Fortress. Even a champion fighter would have been useful! In the end they hit it with Hypnotic Pattern and swam away as fast as they could. I see an element of "if you don't have the right thing you are screwed" in quite a lot of encounters in this adventure. Bad thing? Good thing? You decide.
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 15
Chapter 5 continued continued
More exploration of the sunken city. The openness and three dimensionality of this "dungeon" makes it it something of a challenge to describe, as structures gradually emerge from the murky darkness. The boxed text seems to assume the party suddenly find themselves inside the locations. It also feels a bit like a map from a CRPG, with a lot of encounters crammed into as relatively small area. And for an adventure which has up until now been light on magic items, the party suddenly found a bunch of them. Some of the new monsters in this adventure are real killers. Slithering bloodfins managed to swallow two party members on the first round. Many of the new creatures have high movement speeds, shouldn't underestimate the simple power of moving fast, especially when most of the party can only move at half speed (because swimming).
Chapter 5 continued continued
More exploration of the sunken city. The openness and three dimensionality of this "dungeon" makes it it something of a challenge to describe, as structures gradually emerge from the murky darkness. The boxed text seems to assume the party suddenly find themselves inside the locations. It also feels a bit like a map from a CRPG, with a lot of encounters crammed into as relatively small area. And for an adventure which has up until now been light on magic items, the party suddenly found a bunch of them. Some of the new monsters in this adventure are real killers. Slithering bloodfins managed to swallow two party members on the first round. Many of the new creatures have high movement speeds, shouldn't underestimate the simple power of moving fast, especially when most of the party can only move at half speed (because swimming).
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 16
Chapter 5 conclusion
My group finished this chapter at the end of the session. Not much more to say than I haven't already mentioned. I was again struck by how much powerful magic loot there was in this adventure compared the rest. Definitely feels like it had a different writer, probably Monty Haul. Compared to some of the other monsters the giant jellyfish was a bit of a pushover. With a 60 ft. reach, I suspect it has the longest reach in the game, so used in a situation where it was difficult to get to it might be more dangerous. There are a few anomalies to watch out for. There is a building which only a worshiper of a particular god can enter. An NPC is provided if there are no suitable PCs, but the text implies ONLY the worshipper can enter, whereas the narrative assumes they can let in the whole party. Also, the descriptions are inconsistent about whether the lost city was originally built by elves or drow.
I've decided the rivals are going to have a falling out, in order for at least some of them to try and oppose the PCs.
Time for Chapter 5: 10 hours
Chapter 5 conclusion
My group finished this chapter at the end of the session. Not much more to say than I haven't already mentioned. I was again struck by how much powerful magic loot there was in this adventure compared the rest. Definitely feels like it had a different writer, probably Monty Haul. Compared to some of the other monsters the giant jellyfish was a bit of a pushover. With a 60 ft. reach, I suspect it has the longest reach in the game, so used in a situation where it was difficult to get to it might be more dangerous. There are a few anomalies to watch out for. There is a building which only a worshiper of a particular god can enter. An NPC is provided if there are no suitable PCs, but the text implies ONLY the worshipper can enter, whereas the narrative assumes they can let in the whole party. Also, the descriptions are inconsistent about whether the lost city was originally built by elves or drow.
I've decided the rivals are going to have a falling out, in order for at least some of them to try and oppose the PCs.
Time for Chapter 5: 10 hours
Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 17
Interlude
Having opened the Netherdeep and discovered they needed to be attuned to a ruidium item to survive there, the party set off back to their patrons. On the way they where ambushed by two of the rivals (backed up by members of the Vermillion Dream), who had grown tired of being nice to the other party and decided to take matters into their own hands. This proved too much for the depleted party, and they where defeated. Fortunately this was a mugging rather than a murder, and they took the item they believed to be the key to the Netherdeep and left. The rest of the session the PCs spent chasing them down to get their axe back. Eventually it was resolved by one of the rivals, Dermot the goblin cleric, who negotiated his way out of an interparty deathmatch.
This is probably the last time the rivals will appear in this adventure, unless I decide I need them to do something that crops up later.
Interlude
Having opened the Netherdeep and discovered they needed to be attuned to a ruidium item to survive there, the party set off back to their patrons. On the way they where ambushed by two of the rivals (backed up by members of the Vermillion Dream), who had grown tired of being nice to the other party and decided to take matters into their own hands. This proved too much for the depleted party, and they where defeated. Fortunately this was a mugging rather than a murder, and they took the item they believed to be the key to the Netherdeep and left. The rest of the session the PCs spent chasing them down to get their axe back. Eventually it was resolved by one of the rivals, Dermot the goblin cleric, who negotiated his way out of an interparty deathmatch.
This is probably the last time the rivals will appear in this adventure, unless I decide I need them to do something that crops up later.
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Paul Farquhar
Legend
Session 18
Chapter 6
I hate this chapter! It's full of disconnected short scenes with dull, short fights, and isn't well suited to a VTT! My friend reckons it would work better if all the players where professional actors! Also, the player map is flawed. For a start it omits the many secret doors. Not that they seem to matter, and I can't think why it would even occur to players to search for them, so I decided to leave them out. It also not a good match for the text descriptions - an altar that is mentioned in the text is not on the map, causing my players to assume it was unimportant, given that important features are usually shown on the map, a "headless" statue has a head, etc.
Chapter 6
I hate this chapter! It's full of disconnected short scenes with dull, short fights, and isn't well suited to a VTT! My friend reckons it would work better if all the players where professional actors! Also, the player map is flawed. For a start it omits the many secret doors. Not that they seem to matter, and I can't think why it would even occur to players to search for them, so I decided to leave them out. It also not a good match for the text descriptions - an altar that is mentioned in the text is not on the map, causing my players to assume it was unimportant, given that important features are usually shown on the map, a "headless" statue has a head, etc.
Ruin Explorer
Legend
One of my realizations as a DM in my 30s was "Wait, players almost never search for secret doors unless they have a pretty strong reason to believe they're there, but I've been putting loads of secret doors in my adventures, so how about I don't do that anymore?".
Dropping secret doors generally unless they were a significant plot point made my life as a DM better, and because then I wasn't hiding loot or weird/cool encounters behind them, my adventure design improved too.
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