Call/Rebuke

[Chu Li]

I was just wondering...
what would happen, if someone with access to one of the elemental domains (e.g. a cleric) called an outsider with the elemental subtype matching his domain power via planar ally and then tried to rebuke (command) it?

GO! (plz)

Chu Li

 

[UltimaGabe]

Well, first, he'd roll a Charisma check and consult the table in the PHB about Turning Undead. Depending on the result, if the Cleric is able to affect a creature with HD equal to or greater than the outsider, he rolls turning damage (2d6+ charisma modifier, I believe). If the total damage is equal to or greater than the outsider, it's Rebuked (or commanded if its HD is less than half the Cleric's level).

In other words, it would would work exactly the same as Rebuking.

 

[Chu Li]

thank you for your answer.
rather than the mechanisms on rebuking, i'd like to know what actually happens to the called creature. is it compelled to stay on this plane beyond the limits of the calling spell?

from what the description of available calling spells (planar binding/ally) says i derive that it's actually a matter of convincing or bargaining with the entity to make it do as you wish. rebuking (commanding) is a matter of total domination though. the commanded creatures follows all your orders blindly (within its capabilities), including eating itself if that's what you tell it to do.

the exploit in this would be to call a creature for a minute or so and giving it a trivial task (like "stay here") and then rebuke it in order to make it your eternal thrall.

any thoughts on that?

Chu Li

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Oh! No - the rebuker, depending on his roll, can take control of the summoned elemental over from its original summoner (if it isn't himself), but the spell still ends when its duration runs out.

 

[mvincent]

the spell still ends when its duration runs out.

I think the point the OP was trying to make is that the planar ally spells are "Duration: Instantaneous"... the ally is choosing not to return home because you give it loot.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Oops. Missed the Instantaneous part; for some reason, I thought they were See Below.

Interesting question, then ...

Of course, one could argue that if your task for the creature was "Stand here," and then you dominated it and had it do something else, then the creature has fulfilled the terms of its bargain and returns immediately to its home plane.

At the end of its task, or when the duration bargained for expires, the creature returns to its home plane (after reporting back to you, if appropriate and possible).

There's also the issue with Planar Ally being a request:

By casting this spell, you request your deity to send you an elemental or outsider (of 6 HD or less) of the deity’s choice.

Accordingly, this seems like the sort of trick that works once and really pisses off your god. There's less of an issue with Planar Binding, of course, and beings from other planes forced to serve against their will (and, inevitably, turning on the caster whenever his control slips) is one of the key points of fantasy fiction, so ...

 

[mvincent]

this seems like the sort of trick that works once and really pisses off your god.

Good catch. That seems like a valid point.

 

[darthkilmor]

Accordingly, this seems like the sort of trick that works once and really pisses off your god.

Not necessarily. If your god hates fire elementals and you can rebuke fire elementals and you pray to your god "please send me a fire elemental so that I may spanketh thine hated elementals of fire, oh lord of all that is watery and wet".
Whats the problem with your god sending you a fire elemental? It just has to be of the deities choice, nothing saying that has to be someone the deity Likes.

Of course then its a question of is your god powerful enough to do that...

 

[mvincent]

Not necessarily. If your god hates fire elementals and you can rebuke fire elementals and you pray to your god "please send me a fire elemental so that I may spanketh thine hated elementals of fire, oh lord of all that is watery and wet".
Whats the problem with your god sending you a fire elemental?

You would need a diety that:
1) Has the fire domain (to enable you to rebuke fire elementals), and
2) Hates fire elementals, and
3) Has spare fire elementals that he can send you for spanking purposes

If you have such a diety, I'm guessing your diety's wrath is the least of your (and your deity's) problems.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

This seems like the sort of trick that works once and really pisses off your god

I don't see why.

1) Your deity grants you a spell to call a fire elemental
2) Your deity grants you the ability to rebuke/command the fire elemental

I think this is a fine strategy. Seems like you're just doing your deity's will to me.

If your deity doesn't want you to do this, he'll withhold the domain power. Or, if he's a greater deity, he'll know your motives before you cast the planar ally (he can see into the future regarding his portfolio), and he'll withhold the spell.