Cambion racial stat modifiers - WTF?

[BryonD]

It's a feature, not a bug. Monsters are deliberately underpowered as PC races compared to humans and demihumans in order to make them less common.

I agree with the concept.

But I do think they went to far in the implementation. Often WAAAY to far.

I'd like to see it where a human fighter is slightly better than a equal ECL "tough fighter type" monster fighter. By RAW the monster generally can not hold a candle to the "equal" ECL human.


On topic, in addition to the crazy flaws already pointed out, the adjustements don't even map out to the statblock.

 

[Mercule]

Wow. Just wow. If that's indicative of the quality of the book, then I really don't see getting it. That's at least as bad as some of the early 3rd party foul-ups that turned me into WotC's man-whore.

 

[Rhun]

Maybe it is just me and my old skool gamer knowledge, but wasn't a Cambion simply a half-fiend back in 1E? Is a Cambion now going to be a completely seperate type of demon?

 

[Mercule]

Maybe it is just me and my old skool gamer knowledge, but wasn't a Cambion simply a half-fiend back in 1E? Is a Cambion now going to be a completely seperate type of demon?

Cambion was its own race in 1E. I've got a player who has been wanting to update a 1E cambion follower of Graz'zt since 3E came out. The half-fiend just doesn't cut it. I was really excited for him when I saw this module was coming out and even moreso when I saw the cambion listed in it. I'm just not seeing it as mechanically sound.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

It's a feature, not a bug. Monsters are deliberately underpowered as PC races compared to humans and demihumans in order to make them less common.

Fighters and wizards are less common than warriors and commoners. Should they suck too?

What chaps my ass about savage species is the friggin book about playing monsters was written with the intent that it not be used. They need to focus on balance, and let the DM be the gatekeeper of what is and isnt kosher in his campaign. If I run an all kua-toa campaign, it stands to reason that they'd be common, so why slap them with a "suck tax"?

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I agree with the concept.

But I do think they went to far in the implementation. Often WAAAY to far.

I'd like to see it where a human fighter is slightly better than a equal ECL "tough fighter type" monster fighter.

Why not make them roughly equal instead of automatically better?

 

[BryonD]

Fighters and wizards are less common than warriors and commoners. Should they suck too?

What chaps my ass about savage species is the friggin book about playing monsters was written with the intent that it not be used. They need to focus on balance, and let the DM be the gatekeeper of what is and isnt kosher in his campaign. If I run an all kua-toa campaign, it stands to reason that they'd be common, so why slap them with a "suck tax"?

Well, the idea remains that the whole CR/EL system is tied to levels. So in an all kua-toa campaign the idea of what "real" level is a KT Fighter 1 should be addressed. So a level adjustment is a good idea.

Still, the level adjustment should not be overrated as WotC seems so deeply fixated on doing.

 

[Laman Stahros]

Maybe it is just me and my old skool gamer knowledge, but wasn't a Cambion simply a half-fiend back in 1E? Is a Cambion now going to be a completely seperate type of demon?

Cambions were male half-demons in 1e, while alu-fiends were female half-demons. Both had their own stats. In 3e, I just use the half-fiend template for both. Cambions were ridiculously (sp?) powerful compared to alu-fiends, the marquis cambion moreso than the common cambion.

 

[BryonD]

Why not make them roughly equal instead of automatically better?

Because, IMO, there should be a motive to play the human.

In a good system there would be a slight default bias to favor core races and that would be clearly pointed out. From there any DM can knock 1 level (or whatever) off the monsters if they want to ignore that.

It is certainly a matter of opinion. But if there is no reason to be human, then you get a lot fewer humans and that starts to get whacky in my experience. Again, if the set goal is an all ogre game, then by all means adjust for it. But that isn't the default and the raw should serve the default, and just include easy information for DM custimization.

 

[Delta]

Fighters and wizards are less common than warriors and commoners. Should they suck too?

They are not less common as PC selections, which is what Doug was talking about. Rather, War/Com are intended to be less common PC choices... and so they should be weaker than Ftr/Wiz... and indeed they are.