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D&D 5E Can a Shadow Blade be your Chosen Hex Warrior weapon?

posineg

Explorer
It doesn't say "after you finish a long rest." It says (per your quote) "Whenever you finish a long rest..." Whenever you read something like that, it means "at the time that you finish a long rest." On account of that's what whenever means :)

To argue a point, what you just said is a very brief window... only a fraction of a second. Considering that it takes a person a few seconds just to roll out of bed, would you have missed the opportunity to pick your spells in that time?
 

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Pathkeeper24601

First Post
To argue a point, what you just said is a very brief window... only a fraction of a second. Considering that it takes a person a few seconds just to roll out of bed, would you have missed the opportunity to pick your spells in that time?

This really depends on how you run rests. I see the 8 hours long and 1 hour short as the minimums (ignoring elves). In my game, a rest ends when the party engages in activity that is not associated with the given rest. Features that refresh during a specific rest are such that they require an unspecified amount of that time that is greater than a single action. Additionally, since there is not a designated Action for choosing your weapon, there is no context for doing this in combat.
 

jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
To argue a point, what you just said is a very brief window... only a fraction of a second. Considering that it takes a person a few seconds just to roll out of bed, would you have missed the opportunity to pick your spells in that time?
That's being a bit silly, people use the "whenever" construction all the time without a restriction to an instant.

"Whenever our team scores, you can sing the touchdown song." That doesn't mean you are supposed to sing for just an instant while the score is made. Neither does it mean that you should sing the song four hours later when you're at home. It means start singing soon after they score, before anything else happens.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
To argue a point, what you just said is a very brief window... only a fraction of a second. Considering that it takes a person a few seconds just to roll out of bed, would you have missed the opportunity to pick your spells in that time?
Now you’re just being intentionally obtuse.

The language surrounding when spell preparation happens is entirely in out of character terms. Finishing a Long Rest, as your question illustrates, isn’t something characters actually do, it’s a game mechanical term. Characters spend 8 hours sleeping and performing light activity. The book intentionally does not dictate what your character does during those 8 hours, so that you are free to determine for yourself what your character’s spell preparation looks like. Does your wizard actually read through his spell book before bed and meditate on the spells he wants to cast the next day while he sleeps? Does your cleric pray to Pelor at sunrise as part of her morning routine? Does your druid let the magic flow freely and take the shape that it wishes, the actual choice of spells being entirely out-of-character? The game doesn’t decide those things for you. It just tells at what point you, the player, are allowed to decide which spells your character will have available that day. And that point is, when you complete a Long Rest.
 

posineg

Explorer
Exactly my point!

If you cannot except that "Whenever you finish a long rest..." is not a fraction of a second, how can you then define the timeframe that it has to be.

Many DM's will play this as any time after the long rest that works for the group. To define that it has to be the first thing or never is just a load.

What happens when you have two conditions requiring you to do X "Whenever you finish a long rest..." say multi-class, do you mis out on one of the classes spells training?
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
Exactly my point!

If you cannot except that "Whenever you finish a long rest..." is not a fraction of a second, how can you then define the timeframe that it has to be.

Many DM's will play this as any time after the long rest that works for the group. To define that it has to be the first thing or never is just a load.

What happens when you have two conditions requiring you to do X "Whenever you finish a long rest..." say multi-class, do you mis out on one of the classes spells training?

What are you going on about?

"Whenever you finish a long rest" means your character was doing it during the long rest. You (as a player) just don't have to decide what was being prepared/regained/whatever until the long rest is finished.
 

pukunui

Legend
Looks like the OP got his answer:

Capture.JPG
 
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jaelis

Oh this is where the title goes?
Exactly my point!

If you cannot except that "Whenever you finish a long rest..." is not a fraction of a second, how can you then define the timeframe that it has to be.
Using the ordinary rules of English? Come up with a real example of using "whenever..." the way you suggest.

What happens when you have two conditions requiring you to do X "Whenever you finish a long rest..." say multi-class, do you mis out on one of the classes spells training?
No. Ordinary English is neither a programming language nor a free-for-all. There are many places in the rules that are ambiguous because of that. But this is not one of them.
 

posineg

Explorer
For Example:

Cleric:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you
finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f cleric spells
requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1
minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

Druid:
You can also change your list o f prepared spells when
you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f druid
spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at
least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

I multi-class both classes and I want to change a few spells in each list. Is this possible? When does the "Whenever you finish a long rest..." event happen?
 


pukunui

Legend
My apologies if you thought I was trying to rub salt in your wounds. I mainly shared it here so that others could see it, as I know that not everyone here looks at Twitter. I shall amend my post to make that more clear.


I multi-class both classes and I want to change a few spells in each list. Is this possible? When does the "Whenever you finish a long rest..." event happen?
When do you think it should happen?

As a DM, I would rule that it happens in the immediate span of time after the long rest has ended. That is, if you have enough time before the new day's events begin, you can spend however many minutes you need swapping out both cleric and druid spells. If you don't, then you'd be stuck with the ones you've already prepared.
 
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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
Exactly my point!

If you cannot except that "Whenever you finish a long rest..." is not a fraction of a second, how can you then define the timeframe that it has to be.
It’s not a timeframe, it’s a window of opportunity in the game mechanics. Once you finish a long rest, you have a window of opportunity to take any game-mechanical actions that say you must take them when you finish a long rest. You must then close that window of opportunity before taking any game-mechanical actions that do say you must take them when you finish a long rest. Think of it like Magic: the Gathering (also made by WotC.) The upkeep step doesn’t have a limited amount of time, nor a limited number of upkeep triggers you are allowed o perform. But you can’t move on to your draw step or main phase until you’ve decided you’ve done everything you wanted to do in your upkeep and advance the turn,

Many DM's will play this as any time after the long rest that works for the group. To define that it has to be the first thing or never is just a load.
And those DM’s are free to make that house rule if it suits their games, but it is not in accordance with the rules as written (they say “when”, not “after”) nor the rules as intended (see Jeremy Crawford’s Tweet).

What happens when you have two conditions requiring you to do X "Whenever you finish a long rest..." say multi-class, do you mis out on one of the classes spells training?
Same thing that happens in Magic when you have multiple abilities that trigger on your upkeep. You do them all before moving on to your next window of opportunity for action.
 

Caliban

Rules Monkey
For Example:

Cleric:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you
finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f cleric spells
requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1
minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

Druid:
You can also change your list o f prepared spells when
you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f druid
spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at
least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

I multi-class both classes and I want to change a few spells in each list. Is this possible? When does the "Whenever you finish a long rest..." event happen?

Right after you finish the long rest. In this case it takes "Long Rest + X minutes" to finish preparing your spells, where X = total spell levels changed.
 

Thurmas

Explorer
For me the end of a long rest meets two conditions.

1. Characters have actually rested, ie slept or meditated or whatever they need to do.

2. They have started doing something else that isn't resting. Crafting, traveling, fighting, etc. A long rest has to be 8 hours, but it can also be longer. If they spend the entire day lounging around a campsite, that's an entire day long resting. You get no extra benefits from it.
 

Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/They)
For Example:

Cleric:
You can change your list of prepared spells when you
finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f cleric spells
requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at least 1
minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

Druid:
You can also change your list o f prepared spells when
you finish a long rest. Preparing a new list o f druid
spells requires time spent in prayer and meditation: at
least 1 minute per spell level for each spell on your list.

I multi-class both classes and I want to change a few spells in each list. Is this possible? When does the "Whenever you finish a long rest..." event happen?

When you finish a long rest, you have a window of opportunity to do things that say you can do them when you finish a long rest. At that time, you can spend 1 minute per cleric spell level you want to prepare, and 1 minute per druid spell level you want to prepare, in order to prepare those spells. Once you are ready to move on and start doing things that don’t happen when you finish a long rest, that window of opportunity closes. So, if you prepared your Cleric spells and then decided for some reason that you wanted to cast Divination before preparing your Druid spells, then you would miss the window and be unable to prepare Druid spells that day.
 

dropbear8mybaby

Banned
Banned
I mainly shared it here so that others could see it, as I know that not everyone here looks at Twitter.
I came here to post it myself. I'm not afraid to risk not confirming my bias, which was why I asked Crawford in the first place.

To me, the language is not clear because it doesn't specify a duration after the event. While I realise it could be interpreted the way you and others have, I don't like to make assumptions without clarity.

It seems that they've gone for a vague "window" of time after the event but before anything meaningful in the adventuring day has happened, which as far as I'm concerned, goes against some of the specificity they've heralded as a hallmark of the edition.
 


Van_Guardian

First Post
I have been wondering the same thing, but after reading through your thread I think you could go about achieving this a different way.

If you were to choose Pact of The Blade as your Pact Boon it would give you the ability to apply these benefits to your Pact Weapon. (As you mentioned)


Hex Warrior
"If you later gain the Pact of the Blade feature, this benefit extends to every pact weapon you conjure with that feature, no matter the weapon’s type..."


Then the question becomes, "Can your choose to summon your Pact Weapon in the form of a Shadow Blade?"

Though they are two different spells I would argue that they can work together.


Pact of the Blade
"You can choose the form that this melee weapon takes each time you create it..."


I would say that you could use your Action and Bonus Action to summon a Shadow Pact Weapon. Using your Action to summon your Pact Weapon and also using your Bonus Action to summon it in a Shadow Blade form. (Maybe a shadowy form of the weapon you normally summon)

The wording seems to allow for this in saying: "No matter the weapon's type..." & "You can choose the form..."
Also, the fact that one is an Action and the other is a Bonus Action would allow them to flow together.

Therefore, as long as you use your Concentration keep the summoned weapon in its shadow form you could utilize the benefits of both for the duration of Shadow Blade.
 

Bardbarian

First Post
as written the others have answered it. there would be no balance issue if your Dm allowed you to do it at a later point int the day. This would effectively make your character weaker so I would not suggest it but if your Dm allows it there is no harm to the game balance.
 

Bruinlord

Villager
So let's say I wake up and don't choose a weapon. Then, later on, I get into a fight and summon a Shadow Blade. Then I go to myself, "Yah know what, I'm touching this weapon!"

Would you then get to add the benefits of the Hex Warrior ability?

Given that it automatically applies to any Pact Weapon you summon, it's not like you'd be without a weapon during the rest of the day either, even after the Shadow Blade has disappeared.
But it's worded that whenever you finish a long rest, you can touch one weapon that you are proficient with and lacks the two-handed property. Does not say. At the end of a long rest you touch a weapon...
I'd argue it's more like action surge, where you choose when to execute it than the path of the beast Barbarian feature bestial soul, where when they finish a short or long rest they choose one of three until the next short or long rest. But I guess it's always up to the DM
 

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