Can a Slowed Creature Shift?

[Markn]

That's no more valid than: At the beginning of your turn, determine how many standard, move, minor, and free actions you have. If you are dazed, you have one action (standard, move, OR minor) plus free actions. Unless explicitly stated otherwise, nothing changes this.

Your "consistent" approach is actually a retcon and creates a paradox. If I take a minor action and then become dazed, I can't do anything else? But, if I take all three actions and then become dazed, the universe doesn't blow up? How's that consistent? Instead, apply the daze going forward (not backward, i.e. no retcon) from the point at which it was initiated. You still can't violate the laws of the universe in terms of actions per round, but if you took a minor action and then became dazed, you would still get one more action (plus free actions). If you took a standard action and then became dazed, your one more action could only be a minor or move action (plus free actions).

This is exactly how our group plays this. Our group has had quite a bit of discussion on how this is supposed to work. Ultimately, we felt that since slow is explicit and none of the other conditions are, we felt it must be different. Just as I2K points out, retroactively looking at what was done just seems more bizarre than applying the condition from that point onward.

 

[Markn]

Infiniti, you're making no sense. Becoming dazed doesn't suddenly cause you to "forget" how many actions you've taken on a given turn.

If you're dazed, and you've taken one -or more- action on that turn, you can't take further actions. There's no reason to introduce a false dichotomy; of course you don't undo actions taken before you were dazed -- you weren't dazed!

And for the exact same reason, dazed shouldn't care what happened before it either. The condition does not care. It should only apply going forward.

 

[keterys]

Dazed applies fully, even if you get it in the middle of your turn, just as much as slowed... or immobilized, restrained, etc. Slowed is just clarifying how it works since it's more complex than, say, Immobilized, in that instance.

On a plus side, if you're dazed on your turn and you fix it as your single action, you now can take the other two. Go you!

 

[Markn]

Dazed applies fully, even if you get it in the middle of your turn, just as much as slowed... or immobilized, restrained, etc. Slowed is just clarifying how it works since it's more complex than, say, Immobilized, in that instance.

On a plus side, if you're dazed on your turn and you fix it as your single action, you now can take the other two. Go you!

I agree that this is one valid way of looking at it since the rules are ambiguous about conditions.

Another way of looking at it is the way I2K and I have stated our position.

Exlained another way - when it comes to conditions, they don't apply until you have one.l You are not unconscious until you are unconscious. You are not dying until you are dying. You are not stunned until you are stunned. Stunned is particularly important in this example because if you start your turn NOT stunned, perform an action (or more) and then become stunned - the you should not have had any actions. The fact is, the condition does not care what happened before it was applied. It care what happens going forward. Every condition is this way - EXCEPT Slow which explicitly points this out. I don't buy that they thought it was more complex and decided to explain it further.

Also in response to removing Dazed and getting more actions, this further supports my way of looking at it. If you look at it that any previous actions apply to your single action that you have when Dazed because it is forward looking. If it was backward looking then the fact that you already used your action would invalidate any further actions.

 

[keterys]

Correct, conditions do not apply until you have one.

Hence, if you take a move action, move 2 squares, and on the 3rd square you provoke an opportunity attack, and that opportunity attack immobilizes you, then you stop moving - because immobilized doesn't care about what you did before, but it does say you can't move now.

Similarly, if you take a move action and an OA dazes you, then you cheerfully finish the move action... then go "Okay, I'd like to take a standard action. But I'm dazed, and I already moved. Oh well, can't do that".

Dazed could be worded as 'At the start of your turn, you only gain one standard action' instead, and it would work the way you'd prefer. On the downside, using a minor action to cure the dazed would no longer be particularly advisable.

No one is claiming that you roll back time (or 'interrupt' as it were) to reduce the amount you moved, with slow, or undo previous actions, with stunned or dazed. Simply that you must then follow the rules for those conditions, once you have them. And, while they certainly could have more examples and be better explained, I think you'll find there's not as much table variation as you'd hope on this one.

 

[Markn]

If you get Dazed during an action, then I agree with your premise. However, if you get dazed as an immediate reaction or a free action then as far as the Dazed condition is concerned, you have not used up your action because you were not in the middle of performing an action and therefore you have not used up your remaining action.

There IS a difference between this example and yours - and this has happened in our game at least a few times by now (we just made level 29).

 

[keterys]

So, different example then:
Orc attacks a fighter, causing him some damage.
As an immediate reaction, the fighter uses Shield Bearer's Vendetta to daze the Orc.

Orc still has a move action and minor action, but has taken a standard action. It's still his turn. On his turn, he can take either a standard, move, or minor action, per definition. Unless you read that as permissive, instead of restrictive, he's taken his one action, and is now restricted to free actions. If you read it as permissive, I think you run into other possible problems (like being dazed while stunned or dominated).

It's interesting that you'd rule differently if the orc was doing a Passing Attack, wherein he attacked the fighter, got dazed, then shifted and made a second attack (ie, in the middle of his action) instead of a reaction to an action that was finished.

 

[Markn]

So, different example then:
Orc attacks a fighter, causing him some damage.
As an immediate reaction, the fighter uses Shield Bearer's Vendetta to daze the Orc.

Orc still has a move action and minor action, but has taken a standard action. It's still his turn. On his turn, he can take either a standard, move, or minor action, per definition. Unless you read that as permissive, instead of restrictive, he's taken his one action, and is now restricted to free actions. If you read it as permissive, I think you run into other possible problems (like being dazed while stunned or dominated).

It's interesting that you'd rule differently if the orc was doing a Passing Attack, wherein he attacked the fighter, got dazed, then shifted and made a second attack (ie, in the middle of his action) instead of a reaction to an action that was finished.

Immediate reactions wait for the action that triggered it to be completed and resolved. Thus, by the time Dazed comes into effect, he still has an action. If this were not the case, the condition would be backward checking (as in, has the person used an action this turn yet?). No other condition in the game thinks or works like that so Dazed should be no different. It only counts from the moment you get dazed. It's the nature of the beast so to speak. By RAW this must be the way it works. RAI may be a different story.

At any rate, I gotta work for a few hours. If you have some more examples I'd be interested in them as it validates my argument (or makes me rethink it sometimes).

 

[keterys]

Reactions check for every square of movement, or even every attack when you make multiple melee attacks. Hence, you can indeed immediate reaction shield bearer's vendetta into the middle of a Passing Attack.

Why I used that as an example.

At any rate... it's a perfectly reasonable house rule, doesn't really hurt much of anything, has an odd interaction with certain powers wrt reactions, but whatever, if it works for you, carry on. The difference between it and RAW is pretty minimal, frankly.

 

[DracoSuave]

Immediate reactions wait for the action that triggered it to be completed and resolved. Thus, by the time Dazed comes into effect, he still has an action. If this were not the case, the condition would be backward checking (as in, has the person used an action this turn yet?). No other condition in the game thinks or works like that so Dazed should be no different. It only counts from the moment you get dazed. It's the nature of the beast so to speak. By RAW this must be the way it works. RAI may be a different story.

At any rate, I gotta work for a few hours. If you have some more examples I'd be interested in them as it validates my argument (or makes me rethink it sometimes).

But dazed doesn't say 'Starting now, you can take only one action on your turn.' It acts as an exception to the rule stating how many actions you can take on your turn, and therefore replaces it. Because it contradicts the 'Actions on your Turn' part of the rules, it supercedes it, and therefore you don't get the benefits of Actions on your Turn, unless Dazed allows it.

If you get dazed mid-action, then dazed will prevent any further actions. It -does- resolve after the action you dazed during, but that happens -before- the dazed target can do anything else, so you can't claim that the dazed target is getting any further actions... that part of the dazed dudes turn doesn't -exist- yet.

Now, dazed won't go back in time to make actions impossible (unless it's part of an immediate interrupt, but that's interrupts doing it, not dazed itself) nor will it undo actions already done. But, if you've acted before dazed is applied, you're done because you've already taken the only action you are allowed that turn.

You can take either a standard action, a move action,
or a minor action on your turn.

The important thing to notice here is the phrase 'on your turn.' That indicates that the dazed condition is modifying how your turn works. Not your next turn... all your turns, including the turn that dazed is applied.