D&D 5E Can an Arcane Trickster change a cantrip as his spell to change when he gains a level?

ECMO3

Hero
"Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the wizard spells you know with another spell of your choice from the wizard spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots, and it must be an enchantment or illusion spell, unless you're replacing the spell you gained at 3rd, 8th, 14th, or 20th level from any school of magic."

RAI it appears this is talking about leveled spells not cantrips, but RAW cantrips are spells and you get your cantrips at 3rd level, meaning the requirement for illusions or enchantments would not apply either.

Would you allow it?
 

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Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
All I see is that you gain another cantrip at 10th level. Now I would likely allow it at my table, but not sure how many cantrips are enchantment or illusion.
I believe ECMO is trying to replace a cantrip (which is technically “a wizard spell [they] know”) with another wizard spell that is not a cantrip when they gain a level in the class.
 





Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I don’t know, which is the problem. It might be fine, but it might cause unforeseen issues. And since it seems counter to the design intent as well as the wording I’d rather just not allow it, personally. That’s just me though.
The game is robust enough to survive a little imbalance. They still only get so many spells to cast a day. A little more variety up top isn't going to break things. :)
 


Is it really that big of a deal to swap a cantrip for a 3rd level spell known or whatever?
I would assume that if they can't swap their cantrips out via the specific allowance for non enchantment/illusion spells, then they can't get hold of Green Flame Blade, or Booming Blade.

Which does matter as Green Flame Blade is a good reliable damage boost after level 6.
 

ECMO3

Hero
I believe ECMO is trying to replace a cantrip (which is technically “a wizard spell [they] know”) with another wizard spell that is not a cantrip when they gain a level in the class.
No I honestly did not think about that. I am trying to replace a cantrip with another cantrip. For example I have booming blade, light and mage hand at 3rd level and when I level up to 4th level I trade light for chill touch. If I did this I could not replace another leveled spell, so I could not for example replace sleep with Tashas laughter at the same time.
 


Charlaquin

Goblin Queen (She/Her/Hers)
No I honestly did not think about that. I am trying to replace a cantrip with another cantrip. For example I have booming blade, light and mage hand at 3rd level and when I level up to 4th level I trade light for chill touch. If I did this I could not replace another leveled spell, so I could not for example replace sleep with Tashas laughter at the same time.
Oh! Yeah, I don’t think the RAW technically allows it, but I definitely would.
 


see

Pedantic Grognard
Given that (as of Tasha's, at least as an "optional" rule) bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and warlocks can swap a cantrip at every level they get an ASI, wizards (as of 3rd level) can swap a cantrip every long rest, and paladins with Blessed Warrior and rangers with Druidic Warrior can swap a cantrip every level . . .

I think the fair rulings would be that you can use the Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster at-level-change spell swap to swap a cantrip for another cantrip, or you can swap a cantrip at every ASI without using the spell swap, or both.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I would assume that if they can't swap their cantrips out via the specific allowance for non enchantment/illusion spells, then they can't get hold of Green Flame Blade, or Booming Blade.

Which does matter as Green Flame Blade is a good reliable damage boost after level 6.
Why wouldn't they be able to get those two cantrips? They can select any from the wizard list when they begin the subclass.

Edit: Nevermind. I see that they are limited in their choices.
 
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Given that (as of Tasha's, at least as an "optional" rule) bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and warlocks can swap a cantrip at every level they get an ASI, wizards (as of 3rd level) can swap a cantrip every long rest, and paladins with Blessed Warrior and rangers with Druidic Warrior can swap a cantrip every level . . .

I think the fair rulings would be that you can use the Eldritch Knight/Arcane Trickster at-level-change spell swap to swap a cantrip for another cantrip, or you can swap a cantrip at every ASI without using the spell swap, or both.
Yes, I think the omission of EK and AT from the list of classes who can swap cantrips was an oversight, not intention. I would allow swapping a cantrip for a different cantrip.

I wouldn't allow swapping a cantrip for a levelled spell (or visa versa) though. Not because it would have an effect on game balance, but because it invalidates class progression tables. The rules have always treated "cantips known" and "spells known" separately. Does it matter mechanically? No. But there are lots of rules that don't really matter mechanically, and if you change things on a whim or by accident it undermines the "rulishness" of the whole ruleset. Rule changes should always be made with INTENT. Rules that don't matter one way or the other should be left alone - if it doesn't matter there is no need to change it.
 

ECMO3

Hero
Given that (as of Tasha's, at least as an "optional" rule) bards, clerics, druids, sorcerers, and warlocks can swap a cantrip at every level they get an ASI, wizards (as of 3rd level) can swap a cantrip every long rest, and paladins with Blessed Warrior and rangers with Druidic Warrior can swap a cantrip every level . . .
This is really what I wanted to figure out how to do for ATs.
 

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