Can an Illusion of Cats Damage a Rat Swarm?

[phindar]

What does it matter if a cat can see itself in the mirror? (If someone says their cat can recognize itself in the mirror, I'm willing to believe them and if science hasn't proven or disproven this yet, its probably because every time someone has asked for a grant to determine if cats can recognize their own reflection they're been met with, "First, cure cancer, then get back to the cat/mirror thing.")

To me, the issue is that the GM should reward a clever use of a spell, otherwise there's no motivation in trying anything new. The illusion family of spells cry out for this, because if they aren't used creatively they don't do much of anything at all.

 

[Mistwell]

Figment spells, like minor image, lack the ability to cause damage.

He isn't trying to cause damage, despite the thread title. He is trying to chase them rats away.

Also the rats would not be fooled by anything less than major image, since not only would it be silent but it wouldn't have a scent.

Whether they are fooled or not is up to a will save, not one's preconceived notions about the intelligence of a rat swarm in making a meaningful deduction concerning scent.

 

[Nifft]

The worse option IMO, however, is to knowingly let it work once and then not again. That's a really bad precedent to set and a terrible suggestion. If the spell works one way one time, it should work that way all the time.

That's harsh.

There are lots of times when players are allowed to break the rules. The most common mechanic right now is Action Points, but there are lots of other mechanics. This group hasn't mentioned those, else I'd suggest the PC burns an action / fate / hero / force / destiny point and gets the benefit of the player's creativity.

However, if they're not using an existing meta-game mechanic to break the rules, they need some kind of meta-game rule-breaking limiter. I suggest that you both reward their creativity and harness it such that each particular trick works exactly once. (This is common in martial arts fiction. You always need a new move to surprise your main enemy.)

I think my suggestion that a player's creativity is allowed to break the rules (a limited number of times) is very different than your suggestion that a player's creativity be allowed to re-write the rules.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Mistwell]

Full grown humans won't cause moral failure in a swarm of rats, niether will an illusion of houscats.

Full grown humans don't cause a morale failure in elephants either, but a rat swarm would. Some creatures fear certain other creatures, regardless of size. Cats and Rats fall under that category generally - more so than humans and rats.

they treat the cats as a target until it is proven the illusion holds them no interest. They swarm the cats, If the rats fail the will save - try to gnaw the cats, fail to get a mouthful of tasty cat meat and head for the nearest valid target next round.

Or they flee in terror from their mortal enemies suddenly barrelling down on them..like they tend to do in real life when a cat comes at a rat.

 

[Pielorinho]

I'd definitely let it work. It's cool, and the scent thing seems like a red herring to me: animals frequently respond to other sensory inputs (e.g., because something is downwind from them). If it worked every time, that's really not such a big deal, IMO: it's a highly-specific "save or die" spell.

Daniel

 

[phindar]

I was thinking today about how Illusions really have to be specifically tailored to a situation to be really effective. An illusion of snakes or cats or even a big wheel of cheese (okay, that you would need a Major Illusion for) is going to get some sort of reaction out of rats, where as an inappropriate illusion is just a wasted slot.

The best example I can come up with comes not from a game, but the movie Jason X, or as I always called it, "Jason in Spaaaaaaaaaaaace." Whichever you're most comfortable with. At one point, Voorhees is chasing these people through a space ship, and they program the ship's holodeck to delay him. Jason wanders in and he sees two topless camp counselor models who are saying, well, let's let imdb.com take it from here:

[programmed to trick Uber-Jason]
VR teen girl #1: Hey, do you want a beer?
VR teen girl #2: Or do you wanna smoke some pot?
VR teen girl #1: Or we can have premarital sex?
[both remove their tops]
VR teen girl #1, VR teen girl #2: We love premarital sex!

The next scene, if you haven't seen it I won't spoil it, but it had me in tears. That to me is the prime example of a Illusion perfectly tailored to a situation and a target. And that should really get some leeway from the GM.

 

[Imp]

I'd rule that the rats would be held at bay for a few rounds. I'm in the camp that believes swarming rats aren't scared of the same things individuals are. I don't really care about the scent issue, as it's unlikely to come into play in this type of quick-reaction situation, unless you are dealing with creatures that don't see or hear.

 

[lukelightning]

The real technique is to make an illusion of sexy alluring rats with come-hither looks to lure the swarm away.

 

[Mistwell]

The real technique is to make an illusion of sexy alluring rats with come-hither looks to lure the swarm away.

I think that would require a Knowledge (Nature) check in the 30s

 

[Pielorinho]

It's not that hard.
Daniel