Can Dominate disarm a person's weapon?

"Nice super-duper-magic-sword... mine now!"

This works wonders against many named foes who carry special weapons. Not only does it deprive them of many of their abilities; if you pick up the weapon, you can potentially gain those abilities for yourself.
Actually, I'd say it's pretty dangerous picking up those weapons. Assuming, we're talking about e.g. the demon lords: These are artifacts! They might even be intelligent and start to dominate _you_ :D

Or, since they're basically attuned to their wielders, you might rule it's just a minor action to teleport it back into the demon lord's waiting hands.

The rule of cool definitely demands that disarming a demon lord is _not_ an easy way to effectively neuter it.
 

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So are you saying that "creativity" is defined as figuring how to take advantage of a game systems mechanical defects (bag of rats comes to mind)? Funny, I always thought that's what a DM was for and judicious use of the word "No". And don't get me wrong...I'm in favor of the "say yes" concept, but there are times where you are required to "just say no". For example we have a running joke in my group.....the first level PC's ask if they can have an "Axe of the Dwarvish Lords"...and I just say "No".

It's not a mechanical defect that pushing someone off a cliff takes them out of the battle. It's not a mechanical defect - it's a real, in-game decisive moment. These things happen; it's not a flaw, it's a part of the game's reality. If it's possible in the game, and it's a battle winner, it'd be absurd for a creature not to do it!

The solution cannot be to turn the game into a farce. Whatever solution you come up with should be consistent and reasonable in-game.

For example, you might rule that dominate is a sort of mental confusion; the affected loses track of goals and can use only the most common, habitual actions - and in combat, unless the affected habitually throws his weapon (say, because it returns anyhow), you just can't express that idea in the first place in a way the affected creature would understand in it's limited state. That happens to nicely tie in with the limitation on daily/encounter powers - which can't be performed either, after all. At least you could rule that dropping or sheathing a weapon is the best you can do - not the abnormal action of throwing.

Alternatively, you could look at monsters and decide that the lack or presence of a weapon shouldn't be as critical for PC's as it is; in short, the mechanical defect isn't that throwing down a weapon is possible, it's that this makes a +12 difference to attack rolls (and is similarly devastating to damage) - that doesn't make any sense given the way monsters work. So, grant inherent bonuses to unarmed attacks (including math-fix feats like expertise). Sure, you'll lose damage, but it's no longer crippling - actually, it's probably almost always unwise since charging and provoking OA's works quite well, and if there's a cliff, charging over the cliff is probably worse than throwing away a weapon - especially since a dropped weapon might be picked up again.

Another option would be to simply accept the issue and make an adhoc fix to work-around it the first time it comes up, but then to state that this is a common enough risk that all adventurers habitually carry an extra weapon or implement or two. If these are 5 levels lower, then the cost is fairly minor (and in any case, you probably have old weapons lying around), and doing this completely destroys the strategy - suddenly dominate turns into a mere -1 attack and damage for the rest of the encounter or until you can pick up the weapon again as a minor action - certainly not as attractive as the alternatives. As a DM, I'd be perfectly fine with retconning that logic into a campaign: "poof, didn't you know all adventurers have backup weapons?"

You can even combine the three - you can't throw, merely drop a weapon (perhaps into an adjacent square), you can fix the mechanical flaw that is the discrepancy between unarmed PC and unarmed monster attacks, and you can institute a rule that it's expected for all armed creatures to have a reasonable fallback weapon.

What you should not do, however, is just say "that orc shaman over there wants to kill you - but he's nice enough not to really try". That undermines the very essence of the game - at least, if flavor matters (which admittedly it might not in humorous games or in groups focused on the tactical game).
 

When players try to do something creative the DM is required to respond in kind; this kind of creatively negotiating with the rules is the very heart of role-playing and I cannot see how it doesn't have a place in any system, D&D 4e or otherwise. It's certainly far more preferable than just saying "No, you can't."
No, absolutely not. This only leads to an arms race, which truly sucks. This was my biggest gripe with previous versions and is the only reason for "builds" to even exist. I absolutely frickin' hate this suggestion. This is not about yes vs. no or even realism or verisimilitude or anything, it's about making sure the game doesn't suck ass for the players OR the GM. What you suggest makes the game suck for the GM.

Maybe you're in the small percentage of GMs who love a good arms race and love spending gobs of time working on stats and not story or plot, but not me. I'm happiest working on storylines and plot and not trying to figure out ways to outdo the players (5 against 1 for crying out loud). Very heart of role-playing? Definitely not. What you describe is at the very heart of anti-roleplaying. It's at the very heart of number crunching and munchkinny builds!
 

The solution cannot be to turn the game into a farce. Whatever solution you come up with should be consistent and reasonable in-game.
No, I disagree with you. What you should strive for (as DM) instead is to nip this attitude at the beginning. Don't let the players think that they should strive to come up with "creative" ways to screw up your game. You as GM spend a lot of time to come up with interesting stories and plots and you want your players to spend all their time trying to twink their characters and come up with stupid, instagib tactics? Unless you play with a bunch of morons, you can't win. 5-vs-1 is not something you can beat. Even LeBron can't win at those odds!

It seems to me, anyway, that you're trying to come up with "creative" reasons to say no, which is what the rest of us want anyway. So, you seem to be arguing against yourself, or at least against no one in particular.
 

No, absolutely not. This only leads to an arms race, which truly sucks. This was my biggest gripe with previous versions and is the only reason for "builds" to even exist. I absolutely frickin' hate this suggestion. This is not about yes vs. no or even realism or verisimilitude or anything, it's about making sure the game doesn't suck ass for the players OR the GM. What you suggest makes the game suck for the GM.

Maybe you're in the small percentage of GMs who love a good arms race and love spending gobs of time working on stats and not story or plot, but not me. I'm happiest working on storylines and plot and not trying to figure out ways to outdo the players (5 against 1 for crying out loud). Very heart of role-playing? Definitely not. What you describe is at the very heart of anti-roleplaying. It's at the very heart of number crunching and munchkinny builds!

Complex and overblown mechanics including builds and the rules structures that support them are the real cause of the arms race. If having your weapon removed for a time renders a character completely nonfunctional uniformly across most situations then something certainly sucks ass and it isn't the disarm.

With a zillion little finicky rules for combat in play its no small wonder that the whole machine comes to a screeching halt the moment someone starts not thinking like a drone.

D&D combat was originally simple, abstract, quickly resolved, and allowed the game to swiftly return to the storylines and plot that were the focus of the game.

If you take the combat machine and multiply it's weight and complexity tenfold or more (meaning the players are spending much larger chunks of actual play time so engaged) and then gripe about said players exercising some creativity during these combats then when are the players supposed to use their wits? Perhaps in the couple minutes of exploration between scenes?

If imagination has become the enemy of fun in the game then the game has become something I wouldn't want to play.
 

"Sundering" from 3.5 was dropped from 4e because of the crippling effects it would have on monsters and PC under the 4e combat mechanics.
 

No, I disagree with you. What you should strive for (as DM) instead is to nip this attitude at the beginning. Don't let the players think that they should strive to come up with "creative" ways to screw up your game. You as GM spend a lot of time to come up with interesting stories and plots and you want your players to spend all their time trying to twink their characters and come up with stupid, instagib tactics? Unless you play with a bunch of morons, you can't win. 5-vs-1 is not something you can beat. Even LeBron can't win at those odds!

It seems to me, anyway, that you're trying to come up with "creative" reasons to say no, which is what the rest of us want anyway. So, you seem to be arguing against yourself, or at least against no one in particular.

This exact attitude is the very opposite of the attitude I take to DMing. None of these things ever happen or factor into it. "Screw up your game"? They're the players. It's their game. The final three sentences of this paragraph are about losing to the players. As a DM, I'm not trying to win. I don't want to beat the players. After all, aren't all those carefully laid plots and stories equally ruined if I win? The only thing that will screw up your carefully plotted game is a TPK. Again, this mentality of us versus them is not one I can ever possibly subscribe to.

You're also speaking as if these "exploits" are a zero-sum game. Either they're "instagib" twink tactics, or they just don't work. There is a middle ground. There's a distinct difference between limiting creativity and denying it.

No, absolutely not. This only leads to an arms race, which truly sucks. This was my biggest gripe with previous versions and is the only reason for "builds" to even exist. I absolutely frickin' hate this suggestion. This is not about yes vs. no or even realism or verisimilitude or anything, it's about making sure the game doesn't suck ass for the players OR the GM. What you suggest makes the game suck for the GM.

Maybe you're in the small percentage of GMs who love a good arms race and love spending gobs of time working on stats and not story or plot, but not me. I'm happiest working on storylines and plot and not trying to figure out ways to outdo the players (5 against 1 for crying out loud). Very heart of role-playing? Definitely not. What you describe is at the very heart of anti-roleplaying. It's at the very heart of number crunching and munchkinny builds!

I don't care to speculate as to what kind of relationship you (or others) have with their players, but this is simply not the way of things with my group. Maybe it's because we've all DMed for each at least once, maybe we just have a great deal of respect for each other, or maybe it's just none of us are really power-gamers, but as players we never approach with a mentality of messing up the DM's game. There's no trying to out-do one another. It strikes me that what you call the very heart of anti-roleplaying only appears so because of the approach you seem to be taking to roleplaying.

If this the game you enjoy to play, then I can respect it (if I can't understand it). I'm just saying that it bears little resemblance to the game I enjoy to play, but then I suppose that's what makes roleplaying games so great.
 


I think that those of us that are opposed to this are opposed to it on the bag of rats basis. 4e does not have a "Disarmed" condition so anything that you do along those lines would have to be a house rule.

To the OP: I think the basis I would use on this is that creature design and PC design are different. A creature can't do anything that isn't in their stat block. If the creature does not have a ranged attack using said Axe, then he can't do it. Melee Basic and Ranged Basic attacks are something that all PCS get...not monsters.

Edit: As to disarming PC with this trick I think it's a moot point. If it's a melee weapon it can't be thrown because of the weapon requirements of Ranged Basic Attack and if it IS a thrown weapon, it just returns to the PC after level 4 or so....before that you just carry a non-magic spare.
 

The vast majority of melee humanoid combatants sure as heck would have more than 1 weapon, silly to suggest otherwise.
a dagger, kukri, machete or handaxe is a damn vital tool to most folks in RL never mind in D&D ;)

so
a) sure, throw it, at penalty, it's cool

b) the enemy sure as hell will have at least 1 back up weapon. if back up isn't of the type associated with main powers however, the critter is weaker.
for example, it's hard to imagine anyone carrying more than one great axe.
so if he had "Super Knee Chopper" encounter power. :p requiring the great axe, and was made to throw it, well, he's weaker until he gets it back.

instead he'll get basic melee attack with...handaxe or whatever.

this is cool :)
he maybe a tad angry about it though...

"A party of dead adventurers were found in Undermountain today, with great axes shoved up their...Skullports...
A warning message was left behind threatning similar revenge on those who disarm warriors by cheap mental tricks
FILM AT ELEVEN!"
:p
 

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