Can I do this with alter self?

[Mistwell]

Because what you posted is an accumulation of stats (gathered in game) by a player for other players (not in game). If someone asks about the stats or some rules about monsters from a DM's perspective, there's no spoiler. If a player asks about "What's the weakness of a ____?" or, as the analogy I drew, "How do we beat the BBEG in ____?" then he's looking for metagame knowledge. If the player gains access to some chart of monster stats and is not doing it in character, I don't like it. If it's merely an honest attempt to make things easier on the DM and with the DM's foreknowledge, that's okay, too. But, quite honestly, I wouldn't like it, I just wouldn't complain about it. I would not want my players looking up monsters' stats and cataloging them.

Okay. But what is your complaint about my posting them in the rules forum, given we catalog other DM-based things here like prestige classes and magic items and evil spells and the special abilities of creatures and such. Is this really that you don't like the motivations of the person who posted this thread because he is a player and not a DM? If that is the case...that's a pretty harsh standard you have if applied throughout this rules forum. I'd say better than 75% of the questions here are asked by players, and probably about 30% or more of those is about DM-based information like prestige classes and magic items and evil spells and creature tactics and creature special abilities and such.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I don't really see where you're coming from, Infiniti. If you have players who don't metagame, then Mistwell's info is beside the point. If you have players who metagame, then you have an entirely different problem. Mistwell's info is no more a spoiler than addresses to "what are the best spells to pick as an 8th-level sorcerer?" or "how can I get the most out of my paladin's mount?" would be.

 

[Pielorinho]

It's not inappropriate for players to obtain information about monsters? Am I the only one to think that's metagaming? Is the following appropriate or would it get some replies along the lines of what I'm saying?

"Hey, our group fought a troglo...something or other last night and it was really hard to hit. Can someone tell me its AC, average hit points, and other abilities so we can fight it better next time?"

There might be a good followup question: "Is your DM okay with you looking for this kind of help?"

If the DM is okay with it, then of course a link to the publicly available SRD (and even to the appropriate page) is fully appropriate.

If not, a quick note pointing out that they probably ought to discuss the matter with their DM would be appropriate, as long as it was phrased courteously. A link to the SRD would also be appropriate.

However people have fun with the game, as long as they're not doing it in steam tunnels, is their business.

Daniel

 

[Nellisir]

It's like a spoiler. We have spoiler tags to hide certain elements for a reason. I've seen these charts, and this one is no exception, be offered without spoilers. So, if you want to call it a style of play, then their style of play directly affects mine because they impose their style of play on others by not using spoilers.

If you don't want to see the information, don't read rules threads. It's that simple. You do not get to control what other people see. Putting rules, posted in a rules forum, in a spoiler tag is just...silly. Are you going to monitor everyone to make sure only DMs look under the spoiler tag?

It only affects your style of play if your players are accessing it, and that, frankly, makes it a problem with your players, not with the poster.

As a DM, I can honestly say I don't care. I wouldn't allow charts at the table, just like I don't allow free referencing of the Monster Manual, but the players can do whatever they like in the off-hours. I'm still going to whomp their little paper alter-egos anytime I want.

 

[Infiniti2000]

But what is your complaint about my posting them in the rules forum...

No, not at all. I have no complaint about your posting them here. I've tried to say this before, but my complaint isn't about the fact that you created those stats or are giving them to people, it's not even about you specifically (because I quite frankly trust you), it's about someone else, someone unspecified, perhaps not even a member here yet, who desires to metagame. And, your chart, or others that are much more complete, merely serve to enable that metagaming. If the person has full go-ahead from the DM, then no problem. If the person is so much a novice that they ask the wrong question, then the thrusting of such a chart enables the unwitting metagaming (and Pielorhino's last post is good for that). My analogy to modules was that I find that sort of metagaming as bad as reading a module before playing in it, or reading all the spoilers on such modules.

If this doesn't make sense, I can only admit to miserably failing to convey my point. Pielorinho's last post is a suitable and reasonable conclusion. Otherwise (this is for you, KD), please ignore my posts in this thread and continue with the original topic.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

my complaint isn't about the fact that you created those stats or are giving them to people...it's about someone else, someone unspecified, perhaps not even a member here yet, who desires to metagame.

But I have to ask, do we really need to censure ourselves for this kind of imaginary player who may or may not exist? And even if they do exist, why is it a positive to deny them what they're looking for?

I think the mere idea of putting spoiler tags on this kind of information is the first step down a slippery slope that can only lead to complete inanity. Where does it stop? Should we put weapon sizing rules in tags in case the DM is using a house rule? Should we put mention of True Strike in tags because some DMs consider it too strong?

At some point, the reader has to accept responsibility for themselves. If a player who does not want to metagame reads information that can aid in metagaming, it's their responsibility not to metagame, not ours to censure ourselves so they can't.

 

[gabrion]

@OP-As has already been stated, the tactic you asked about does indeed work. In case you're interested in more forms for alter self, here's a quote from one of the threads over at wizards...

Humanoids from the SRD:

[b]Name 		NA	Size	Movement		Skill/feat bonuses[/b]
Bugbear		3	m				+4 Move Silently
Dwarf			m	20 (no encumbrance)	+2 to Craft (Stone or Metal), +2 to Search (Stonework)
Duergar			m	20 (no encumbrance)	+4 Move Silently, +1 Listen and Spot
Elf			m				+2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot
Half-Elf		m				+1 Listen, +1 Search, +1 Spot, 
							+2 Diplomacy and Gather Information
Aquatic Elf		m	40ft Swim		+2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot
Drow Elf		m				+2 Listen, +2 Search, +2 Spot (Looks cool)
Githyanki		m
Githzerai		m
Gnoll		1	m
Gnome			s				+2 Listen, +2 Craft (Alchemy)
Goblin			s				+4 Move Silently, +4 Ride
Halfling 		s				+2 Climb, +2 Jump, +2 Move Silently, +2 Listen
Hobgoblin     	4	m				+4 Move Silently
Kobold        	1	s				+2 Craft (Trapmaking), +2 Profession (Miner), 
							+2 Search
Lizardfolk    	5	m				+4 Balance, +4 Jump, +4 Swim, 
							Claw and Bite attacks (1d4 each)
Locathah      	3	m	Swim 60'		+8 Swim (take 10)
Merfolk       		m	Swim 50'		+8 Swim (take 10)
Orc           		m
Troglodyte    	6	m				+4 Hide (+8 underground), Multiattack, 
							Claw and Bite attacks (1d4 each)

Other Humanoids:

[b]Name 			NA	Size	Movement		Skill/feat bonuses[/b]
Skulk (FF) 		?	m	30			+8 to Move Silently, +15 to Hide.
Svirfneblin (FR) 		s				+2 Search (Stonework), +2 Craft (alchemy), 
								+2 Listen, +2 Hide (+4 underground)
Tallfellow Halfling(FR)		s				+2 Search, +2 Spot, +2 Listen
Deep Halfling Small(FR)		s				+2 to Craft (Stone or Metal), +2 to Search (Stonework), 
								+2 Listen
Phaerlock (Underdark) 	7	?				+4 balance, +4 Jump, +4 Swim, 
								Claws and Bite attacks (1d4 each), Multiattack
Crucian (MH) 		8	m	20			Iron Will, Weapon Focus (Warhammer)
Catfolk (MH) 		1 	?	40			+2 Listen, +2 Move Silently
Dark Creeper (FF) 	1	s	30			Lightning Reflexes
Dark Stalker (FF) 	2 	?	?			Improved Initiative, Lightning Reflexes
Mongrelfolk (FF) 		?				Endurance, +8 Hide, +8 Sleight of Hand
Asabi (MoF) 			?	50’, Burrow 20’		Bite attack(1d4), Combat Reflexes, 
								Jump Lengths Increased
Bullywug (MoF)		3	?	20’, Swim 30’		Endurance, +6 Hide (Marshes)
Gibberling (MoF) 	1	s	30’			Bite (1d3), Weapon Focus (Bite)
Shalarin (MoF) 			?	none, Swim 40’		Weapon Focus (Trident)
Siv (MoF) 		2	?	40’, Swim 20’	
Arctic Dwarf (RoF) 		s?	20’ (no encumbrance)	+2 to Craft (Stone or Metal), +2 to Search (Stonework)
Urdunnir Dwarf (Rof) 		?	20’ (no encumbrance)	+2 to Craft (Stone or Metal), +2 to Search (Stonework)
Wild Dwarf (RoF) 		s?	20’ (no encumbrance)	+2 to Craft (Stone or Metal), +2 to Search (Stonework)
Avarial (RoF) 			m	Fly 50’			+4 Spot, +4 Jump, , +2 Listen, +2 Search
Forest Gnome 			s				+2 Listen, +2 Craft (Alchemy), +4 Hide (+8 Forests)
Grey Orc (RoF) 			m	Move 40’
Orog (Deep Orc) 	2	m				+2 Craft (Armorsmithing and Weaponsmithing)
Spirit Folk, River(UE)			Swim 30’		+8 Swim (Take 10)
         Mountain (UE) 			Climb 30’		+2 Balance, +2 Jump, +2 Tumble, +8 Climb (Take 10) 
Tren (Serpent Kingdoms) 8  	m	30ft, Swim 40ft 	Multiattack, +4 Hide (+8 in rocky/subterranean)

Southernskies compiled a couple of lists of Magical Beasts with under 5 HD for use on familiars and other companions via the Share Spells ability.

The Sage recently said that familiars can only take the forms of animals using Alter Self (via Share Spells). He is obviously wrong. If you want to know why, look near the bottom of Page 2 of this thread. Southernskies lays it out well there.

Alter Self: Magical Beast Forms for your (Diminutive or Tiny) Familiar

-Cockatrice; Small; Fly 60 ft (poor); Bite (1d4)
-Darkmantle; Small; Fly 30 ft (poor); +6 natural; 
slam (1d4); No skill bonus as doesn’t get Blindsight
-Shocker Lizard; Small; 40 ft, climb 20 ft, swim 20 ft; 
+3 natural; +4 Hide, +2 Listen, +2 Spot, +8 climb (take 10), 
+8 swim (take 10); bite (1d4)
-Stirge; Tiny; 10 ft, fly 40 ft (average); Weapon Finesse;

Alter Self: Magical Beast Forms for your Improved Familiar or for Larger Masters.
Also usable with "Improved Familiar, Onara" from "Players Guide to Arcanis" (which has Light Warhorse @ CL5th and Heavy Warhorse @ CL7th) (These could also be useful for a Palladin or Blackguard with Sorcerer levels, etc)

-Aranea (Shapechanger); Medium; Climb 25’; +1 natural; 
+2 Jump, +2 Listen, +2 Spot, +8 Climb (take 10); Bite (1d6)
-Blink Dog; Medium; +3 natural; (Bite 1d6)
-Eagle, Giant; Large; Fly 80 ft (average); +3 natural; 
+4 Spot; 2 Claws (1d6) and bite (1d8); speech 
-Ethereal Marauder (Extraplanar); Medium; +3 natural; 
+2 Listen, +2 Move Silently, +2 Spot; Bite (1d6)
-Hippogriff; Large; 50 ft, Fly 100 ft (average); +4 natural; 
+4 Spot; 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d8)
-Hydra (5 headed); Huge; Swim 20 ft; +6 natural; +2 Spot, 
+2 Listen, +8 Swim (take 10), Combat Reflexes (all heads); 5 bites (1d10) 
-Krenshar; Medium; 40 ft; +3 natural; +4 Jump, +4 Move Silently, Track;
-Owl, Giant; Large; 10 ft, Fly 70 ft (average); +3 natural; 
+8 Listen, +4 Spot, +8 Move Silently when flying; 2 Claws (1d6) and bite (1d8); speech 
-Owlbear; Large; +5 natural; 2 claws (1d6) and bite (1d8)
-Pegasus; Large; 60 ft, fly 120 ft (average); +3 natural; 
+4 Listen, +4 Spot; 2 hooves (1d6) and bite (1d4)
-Phase Spider; Large; 40 ft, climb 20 ft; +3 natural; +8 climb (take 10); bite (1d6)
-Spider Eater; Large; Fly 60 ft (good); +4 natural; +4 Listen, +4 Spot; Sting (1d8)
-Unicorn; Large; 60 ft; +6 natural; +4 Move Silently; horn (1d8) and 2 hooves (1d4)
-Worg; Medium; 50 ft; +2 natural; +1 Listen, +1 Move Silently, +1 Spot, +2 Hide; bite (1d6)

Books: Monster Manual (MM), Monster Manual 2 (MM2), Monster Manual 3 (MM3), Races of Faerun (RoF), Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting (FR), Unapproachable East (UE), Fiend Folio (FF), Underdark (UD), Miniatures Handbook (MH), Manual of the Planes (MoP), Monsters of Faerun (MnF), Lords of Madness (LoM), Sandstorm (SS).

...and...

OK. Here are all of the useful outsider forms I can find to Alter Self into. List is separated by HD and includes NA, Size, Movement Modes, Natural attacks, and other abilities that the form is likely to grant you (probable ones marked with a *).
Outsider Forms:
1 Hit Die

Tiefling (MoF)		0	m	30			+2 Bluff and Hide
Aasimar	(MoF)		0	m	30			+1 Spot and Listen
Bariaurs (PlanarHB)	0	m	40			Powerful Charge*, Quadraped*, +2 Listen and Spot
Neraph (PlanarHB)	2	m	30			Leap* (+5 jump)
Shadowswyft (PlanarHB)	0	m	40			+4 Hide and Move silently
Wildren (PlanarHB)	0	m	20, Burrow 10		2 claws for 1d4, Not slowed by encumberance or armor, Stability*
Fey'ri (MoF)		0	m	30, Fly 40(poor)	+2 Bluff, Hide, Listen, Search and Spot
Earth Gensai (MoF)	2	m	30			
Water Gensai (MoF)	0	m	30, Swim 30		+8 Swim (take 10), Water Breathing*
Bladeling (MM2)		4	m	30			Claw (1d6)

2 Hit Dice

Abyssal Maw (MM2)	5	m	30			Bite (2d8)
Abyssal Skulker (MM2)	2	s	40			2 claws (1d2)
Protectar (MiniHB)	0	m	30, Fly 60(good)	
Azer (MM)		6	m	30			
Bacchae	(FF)		5	m	30			2 Claws (1d4)
Stonechild (MH)		4	m	30			Blind Fight Feat*

3 Hit Dice

Bariaur (BoED)		0	l	40			2 Hooves (1d6), Powerful Charge*, Quadraped*, +2 Listen and Spot
Abyssal Ravager (MM2)	4	l	50			Sting (1d4)
Spinagon (MoP)		4	s	Fly 120 (average)	Talons (1d4)
Kalareem (FF)		5	m	30			
Air Mephit (MM)		3	s	30, Fly 60(perf) 	2 Claws (1d3)
Dust Mephit (MM)	3 	s	30, Fly 50(perf)	2 Claws (1d3)
Earth Mephit (MM)	6	s	30, Fly 40(av)		2 Claws (1d3)
Fire Mephit (MM)	4	s	30, Fly 50(av)		2 Claws (1d3)
Ice Mephit (MM)		4	s	30, Fly 50(perf)	2 Claws (1d3)
Magma Mephit (MM)	4	s	30, Fly 50(av)		2 Claws (1d3)
Ooze Mephit (MM)	5	s	30, Fly 40(av), Swim 30	2 Claws (1d3), +8 Swim (take 10)
Salt Mephit (MM)	6	s	30, Fly 40(av)		2 Claws (1d3)
Steam Mephit (MM)	4	s	30, Fly 50(av)		2 Claws (1d3)
Water Mephit (MM)	5	s	30, Fly 40(av), Swim 30	2 Claws (1d3), +8 swim (take 10)
Juvenile Tojanida (MM)	10	s	10, Swim 60 (Capped)	Bite (2d6), 2 Claws (1d4), Improved Grab*, +8 Swim (take 10), +4 Spot and Search, All Around Vision*
Minor Xorn (MM)		12 	s	20, Burrow 20		Bite (2d8), 3 Claws (1d3), +4 to Spot and Search, All Around Vision*

4 Hit Dice

Abyssal Eviscerator(MH) 10	m	30			2 Claws (1d6), Rake (1d6)
Ramadeen (MH)		4	l	40			Powerful Charge Feat*
Cervidal (MM2)		4	m	50			2 Slams (1d6), Butt (1d3), Charge (1d8), +8 Jump
Advespa (MM2)		7 	l	30, Fly 40 (good)	4 claws (1d6), Sting (1d4)
Skulvyn	(FF)		6	l	10, Swim 50		Bite (1d8) + 2 claws (1d6) or 4 Lashes (1d4), +8 Swim (take 10), +8 Hide in water, Wounding*
Euphoric Imp (FF)	3	t	20, Fly 50 (perf)	Sting (1d4)
Skeroloth (FF)		6	s	40, Burrow & Climb 20	4 claws (1d3), +4 Hide and Move Silently, +8 climb (take 10)
Abishai, White (MoF)	4	m	30 Fly 40(Poor)		Tail (1d6), 2 claws (1d4), bite (1d6)

5 Hit Dice

Xill (MM) 		7 	m	40			4 Claws (1d3), Multiattack*, Improved Grab*
Canoloth (MoP)		10	m	50			Tongue (1d4), Bite (2d6), Improved grab*
Armanite (MoP)		6	l	40, fly 40(poor)	2 Hooves (1d6), Charge*
Rhek (BoED)		7	m	30			Gore 1d8, Powerful Charge*, Instant Stability*
Abishai, Black (MoF)	5	m	30, Fly 40(Poor)	Tail (1d6), 2 claws (1d4), bite (1d6)

 

[Elephant]

I'm not sure it's broken FR as much as "Hey, give the players full access to all of the monster manuals." Having a chart for all those abilities...ugh. Makes me want to puke.

Would you prefer needing to dig through the relevant books during a session, slowing down gameplay?

 

[Pielorinho]

Would you prefer needing to dig through the relevant books during a session, slowing down gameplay?

To be fair, those aren't the only two options. You can also tell players something like, "You can only choose to gain a bonus by adopting a form if your character has directly witnessed that bonus in action." That is, someone who has only fought bugbears in open combat may not take on the bugbear form in order to gain the move silently bonus, that sort of thing. It's not a hard-and-fast rule, but it's one that's amenable to DM adjudication.

You can also tell players, "Feel free to take on a form in order to gain a bonus. Be aware, though, that the monsters in my world are not necessarily the monsters listed in the MM, and their stats may differ significantly." If someone is trying to abuse the system, you can keep things in control through this fashion.

You can also use Rich Burlew's rules, as I may have mentioned once or twice .

Even though I think it's totally copacetic if folks want to play an open-book game, in which these charts are freely available to players, this isn't the sort of game that I'd want to play in--not unless these charts were available as treasure to the PCs, in the form of a transmuter's captured notes.

Daniel

 

[ARandomGod]

As always, it's worth checking out Rich Burlew's rules for shapeshifting: Polymorph rules. Most significantly, you can never gain a bonus that's bigger than your class level through the use of a shapeshifting spell.

Daniel

That's an interesting one... but really to be consistent/balanced you'd have to apply such rules to all spells. Making the spell True Strike much much more useless at first level.

And what's the numerical bonus of flight?

And what about land speed? A 50 land speed is a bonus of +20 (usually), so you can't get that until level 20? Seems a bit.. unfair.

Not implying that shapeshifting doesn't have all kinds of issues, and this particular attempt is indeed a good try to fix it, but I just don't think it quite works.