Can I have your balance opinions on DotF's Sacred Fist?

[Piratecat]

Piratecat, is this something Galthia's considering, or is it for an npc?

Someone familiar might be joining my campaign this winter, and was playing around with the idea. I'm just planning ahead. Updates when I get 'em!

I think it's probably going to be okay. It may be on the more powerful side of a PrC, but I think the consensus isn't that it's overpowered, and that's a good thing.

Thank you, everyone!

 

[Caliber]

Quite welcome Mr. Cat. Least I could do considering all the entertainment your Story Hour has provided me.

 

[Astlin]

How do you fight a black pudding with this? SLUUTH!!!

The same way a fighter does. You cower behind your wizard and let him lightning bolt it.


Astlin

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Play a martial artist

How rediculously overpowered. I thought the Rokugan Ninja was on the strong side, and he's got heavy roleplaying disadvantages.

He's just like a fighter (with d8 only, true, but with 2 good saves) with his bonus feats, plus AC bonus and uncanny dodge.

Lower the BAB and the progression of the bonus feats (every 3rd level at most) and it should be better. And screw martial finesse

 

[hong]

How rediculously overpowered.

I thought we were over the abuse thing? Or shall we start again?

He's just like a fighter (with d8 only, true, but with 2 good saves) with his bonus feats, plus AC bonus and uncanny dodge.

And no armour, and the same disadvantage as the monk: increased reliance on good stats.

Lower the BAB and the progression of the bonus feats (every 3rd level at most) and it should be better. And screw martial finesse

Hm, I can't say that I've found it overpowered. Generally, in a stand-up fight the fighter still seems to inflict more damage, and has more hit points to boot. The MA does do better in terms of pure combat ability than the monk, though, which was basically the objective of the class.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Hm, I can't say that I've found it overpowered. Generally, in a stand-up fight the fighter still seems to inflict more damage, and has more hit points to boot. The MA does do better in terms of pure combat ability than the monk, though, which was basically the objective of the class.

Hm... the Class Construction Engine thinks he's balanced right. Funny that.

The HP are a point, though they amount to 1 HP per level (on average) which should not be that terribly much (I play a bladesinger. They also only get d8 and it seems enough).
You also have another stat you must put up to be effective (WIS), but I don't see why the MA should lag behind a fighter damage-wise (he can have the same STR scores and feats like power attack).

Although he can don no armor, he still gets a class armor bonus, can have full advantage of his DEX bonus and gets the WIS bonus on top. And he still can wear bracers of armor, so armor should not be that much of a problem (he's not neccesarily worse off than the fighter - he's just more specialized)

I'd still either lower the Bonus Feat progression, or give him just one good save.

 

[hong]

Hm... the Class Construction Engine thinks he's balanced right. Funny that.

Oh, good. It's nice to have independent confirmation of my wild hunches.

The HP are a point, though they amount to 1 HP per level (on average) which should not be that terribly much (I play a bladesinger. They also only get d8 and it seems enough).

Don't forget that a MA will also usually have lower Con than a fighter -- it's the dependence on good stats thing. And let me tell you about our last D&D session, where my 12th level martial artist/fighter/PrC archer went from 110 hp to -7 in one round against a boosted death slaad....

(Yeah, he has above average hp, but so does everyone else in the party. The two tanks have ~170 hp each, as a comparison; and one of them went down to 8 hp at one stage in the same fight.)

You also have another stat you must put up to be effective (WIS), but I don't see why the MA should lag behind a fighter damage-wise (he can have the same STR scores and feats like power attack).

Power Attack is indeed more useful for a MA than a burly fighter. But as always there's a tradeoff, in this case attack bonus for damage bonus; and having to spend a feat slot. Those oodles of feat slots can really disappear fast, in my experience.

Although he can don no armor, he still gets a class armor bonus, can have full advantage of his DEX bonus and gets the WIS bonus on top. And he still can wear bracers of armor, so armor should not be that much of a problem (he's not neccesarily worse off than the fighter - he's just more specialized)

Well c'mon mang, you want the guy to _survive_ at least, don't you?

I'd still either lower the Bonus Feat progression, or give him just one good save.

I think I'll just ignore you.

Seriously, the class has already been sent in to Asgard, so it's a bit late to make changes now. But if it does appear that it's seriously out of whack, I'll be sure to put up errata.

 

[Piratecat]

Quitcher hijacking! *whack*

 

[mmu1]

Eugh... Make that one more vote for the "ridiculously overpowered" - the Martial Artist, I mean. (sorry )

Compared to a fighter, he looses: On average, 1 hit point per level, and armor use.

He gains: One more good save, double the skill points per level, an excellent skill list, uncanny dodge, and access to new feats.

The loss of armor is not a valid argument, since he does get to add his WIS bonus to AC, gets a class bonus, can still use bracers of armor / have mage armor cast on him, and has a skill list that completely precludes the use of heavy armor anyway - it's a "limitation" that 90% of playes running this class would likely impose on themselves anyway, to a large degree, even if they had access to heavy armor.

The only real disadvantage here is the reliance on more stats - but that's a limitation that only works in specific circumstances (campaigns in which DM's are very restrictive with re-rolls or use a low-powered point-buy), and it's also based on the assumption that players will pick this class even if they don't have the requisite high stats to take full advantage of it. What happens when someone with good stats decides to play one?

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Someone familiar might be joining my campaign this winter, and was playing around with the idea. I'm just planning ahead. Updates when I get 'em!

It's stuff like this that makes P-Kitty such a rock-ass DM. If someone new were joining my campaign, I'd probably find out what class they were playing about five minutes before they joined, and they'd suffer from "it looks like the orcs had a prisoner and they kept his equipment in the next room over" syndrome.