Can leaders...do damage?

sammy

First Post
I love leader types, not because they do damage, but because with the right combos, make your fighter an almost pure striker.

A warlord with a greatspear does well enough, especially with Commmanders Strike and a huge Barbarian. Not that Barbarians need a lot of help anyway, but why not if I can.

A smart party will look out for the leader types for that extra boost we all love.

And the always good healing for after the fight.

Sammy
 

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Herschel

Adventurer
I ply pretty often with a Dwarven Cleric wielding a Viscious Mordenkrad and his damage is impressive, esppecially on a crit. With his healing power thrown in, he's a darned tough character to deal with as a DM unless you throw strong or tentacled baddies who target Reflex and throw said dwarf at other PCs. ;)
 

MrMyth

First Post
Its an interesting argument I was having with a friend of mine. So far in our experience, all of the core roles seem to be able to put out good damage...with the exception of the leaders.

Striker - Of course
Defender - Fighter - Lots of multi attack powers with high W's lets him put out respectable damage time and time again.
Controller - Wizard - Wizards get lots of crits due to their area effects, and several of their dailies are actually very strikerish in nature (flaming sphere, bigby's icy grasp).

Well, I think the base premise being presented here is something of a faulty one. The Fighter is typically good at dishing out damage, true - but that is largely due to the Fighter having Striker as a sub-role, and thus more easily stepping into those damage dealing shoes. Other Defenders can certainly build for damage as well, but not quite as easily - and the same goes for every class, including the humble Cleric. I certainly think the laser Cleric can compare well to the Wizard - they have plenty of their own dailies which are pretty potent (Spiritual Weapon, Blade Barrier, etc).

In general, many Leaders and Defenders and Controllers will do around the same amount of damage. A sword and board fighter, a paladin, a wizard, a cleric, druid, shaman, bard, warden, swordmage, etc, etc, etc. All these guys are going to tend to be in the range of 1d8+Stat+StandardBonuses for their most common powers, and then have some fluctuation in encounter and daily powers, but usually staying in the same range. Assuming those builds focus on emphasizing the specialties of the roles - Durability and Enemy Acquisition for Defenders, Healing and Buffing for the Leaders, Multi-Targeting and Disruption for the Controllers - then the damage between them will all be pretty comparable. It will all also be lower than the Striker, of course - how much lower depending on how the Striker is built, and whether it has focused on its own specialty or on branching out to other roles on its own.

Now, you can also take any one of those non-Strikers, and have a damage-oriened build for them. I'd say this is possible for all of the classes, though some certainly have an easier time of it then others (such as Fighters.) Any Weapons-based wielder will actually have a bit of a boost due to the potency of Superior Weapons (AV2 might do the same for everyone else when it introduces Superior Implements.)

And for anyone, the option is usually there to focus on powers that grant multiple attacks, that can be sustained for more damage or to repeat attacks, powers that attack as minor or immediate actions, powers that hit multiple foes or are hard for enemies to avoid, etc - while also snagging damage-oriented equipment and feats - can allow you to find a build for any class that will do decent damage.

Now, a Striker that is also focused on damage will almost universally come out ahead anyway - but I don't think any of the other roles are gimped in comparison to each other. But it all depends on build - and, generally, sacrifices will need to be made. A cleric built to deal damage won't provide as much healing as one focus on healing. The damage-cleric might still have enough healing for the party, of course - it just won't be as much as they could potentially bring. In some cases that won't be an issue, in others the difference will hurt.

Which is fine - that's the point of the game, making decisions matter. Both builds contribute meaningfully to the party - that they contribute slightly differently is simply evidence of the strength of the system.
 

Lancelot

Adventurer
I have a 3rd level bard that was a major damage dealer in KotS (just about to start Thunderspire)... but only because I intentionally took powers to replace our lack of a controller.

Shout of Triumph (Bard encounter 1) and Burning Spray (Sorcerer at-will 1; half-elf option) are close blast attacks, which means I was regularly dishing out 2-4 hits for an average 8 damage each, twice per encounter. Not bad.

Plus my preferred bard at-will (Vicious Mockery) was doing more damage than our defender - it may only be 1d6+5 damage, but it's attacking Will defense... so tends to hit more often than the other PCs attacking AC.

From what I've observed of leaders in the games I DM, the warlord can be impressive (for a leader). Not only do they have some high [W] powers themselves, they can add some very serious damage bonuses to other PCs. Commander's Strike and Tactical Switch are fantastic.

I've had little experience with the shaman or artificer, but the cleric seems to be the low man on the damage totem pole. Having said that, I've seen some sick stuff even from a cleric.

Here's an example from a session two weeks ago. Party of four 11th level characters explores an ancient tower, encounters 2 bodaks. The 100+ hp barbarian drops in the first round, thanks to two gaze attacks (first gaze weakens him, the second drops him to 0 hp). The cleric then cracks open a can on the bodaks. Radiant Servant paragon path, so crits on a 19-20 with radiant powers. First attack is a Solar Wrath (one crit, one hit), action point for a Turn Undead (two crits). Both bodaks stunned, pushed, immobilized, and having taken nearly 100hp damage each. In the first round.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
Its an interesting argument I was having with a friend of mine. So far in our experience, all of the core roles seem to be able to put out good damage...with the exception of the leaders.

Striker - Of course
Defender - Fighter - Lots of multi attack powers with high W's lets him put out respectable damage time and time again.
Controller - Wizard - Wizards get lots of crits due to their area effects, and several of their dailies are actually very strikerish in nature (flaming sphere, bigby's icy grasp).

The thing is that of those, only the fighter (or bizzarre teleport-charging wizards) compete at striker damage levels.

I think that the fighter hitting striker damage levels is actually a failing of the designers, not an intended feature. Same goes for those weird wizard builds. The whole thing goes against the entire design goal of having roles.

If you ignore those particular aberrations, then you end up with strikers being significantly ahead on single target damage, and everyone else behind. A paladin vs a wizard vs a cleric all have more-or-less the same amount of raw damage dealing capacity, and it's less than that of the equivalent striker.
 

Tenniel

First Post
Last game I played my leader (Warlord) was dishing at the same damage as the Strikers (a pair of rogues) when using at Wills:

Warlord at will: 1[big_W]+str+int
Rogue at will: 1[little_w]+dex+cha

Of course, the strikers got sneak attack damage sometimes, but as a consequence of positioning for the flank, one rogue spent most of the encounter on the ground. And it was not the warlord doing the hitting with the at will (Commander's Strike with Lend Might) but that made it all the more statisfying from a gameplay/teamwork point of view.

I was quite satisfied with my damage output.
 

Atreides

First Post
My primary PC is an Eladrin Warlord, and I have been quite pleased with my damage output - that being said, my damage is performed by other characters.

At level 11 my Int was 22 (+6).

I Fey step and use Fey Tactics to move the Dragonborn (Str 22) Fighter into position. I then use Adaptive Strategem on the DB. Depending on the initiative order, I either then use Commander's Strike on the DB (+12 Damage), or use my standard as a minor and Guilefull Switch with the DB.

The DB Breathes on bad guys (+6 Dam per hit from AS). She then activates Come and Get It! (+6 Dam per hit from AS). She then spends an action point and activates Fury of Blades (+3 TH from Tactical Presence, +6 Dam per hit from AS, +6 Damage per hit from Tactical Assault).

On my turn I then commander's strike her again for an additional +12 Damage before the AS finally ends. If I am really feeling froggy, I can Warlord's Recovery to have her instead Come and Get It! again, and multiple the AS damage yet again.

Presuming she was able to pull in 4-5 bad guys (which is reasonable with the Teleport movement) this particular combo nets 200-400 damage across the bad guys - more then what either of the two strikers will usually dish out across the entire fight.

Now this is 2 PC's at work - but isn't that the point of the Leader's role?
 

Stogoe

First Post
I've had little experience with the shaman or artificer, but the cleric seems to be the low man on the damage totem pole.
I'm playing a shaman, and while the encounter attacks are okay - 2d8 or 2d10 - the real strength comes with giving all adjacent allies giant bonuses to damage and mobility.

Now if only I weren't playing in a group with a warlock and two rogues (both melee, but one of them is terrified of actually entering into melee). I have the feeling that I would be adding a lot more damage per round if we had a real front line.
 

blargney the second

blargney the minute's son
Once I switched my eladrin tactical warlord from sword & board over to a greatspear, I had a noticeable jump in single-target damage output.

In general, warlords get lots of [w]s on their encounters and dailies. Someone was telling me about his half-orc warlord with an executioner's axe, and it sounded like he was putting out damage to all and sundry.
-blarg
 

satori01

First Post
I have the feeling that I would be adding a lot more damage per round if we had a real front line.

I think that is a common problem....in the group I play in, we have one Fighter, one Wizard, One Warlord, One Bard, and the rest Rogues (x 2), Sorcerer, Ranger, Warlock.

Needless to say Commander's Strike was the first at will the Warlord retrained at second level....unless everyone takes Melee Training a party full of non Strength based strikers just does not benefit from it.

The Bow Bard appears to be able to do some decent damage....3(W) daily, probably a little lower than a Fighter....probably higher than a Swordmage or Warden.
 

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