Can someone explain?

[whatisitgoodfor]

Why oh why do Dragons have a good reflex save?

Does anyone have a good reason as to why a 100 foot long 15 foot wide lizard is supposed to be good at dodging and weaving?

Is there a single person out there (except for the R&D CS team) that doesn't find this at least a little bit humorous?

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Their magically tough scales make it less necessary for them to dodge and weave, thus making them more likely to make the save?

 

[dagger]

I always though of dragons been super quick, graceful, and strong. *shrug*

Thats the way most of the people I have ever gamed with think of dragons also. Depends on your personal view of dragons.

Just because a creature is big does not mean it is clumsy or slow.

I could be wrong though. I was wrong once. One time I thought I was wrong and it turned out I was right.

 

[TrizzlWizzl]

A good Reflex save for dragons makes total sense to me too. I percieve dragons as these really big death machines that move lightning fast, darting around to deal death and dismemberment... not big hulking beasts. Well, no, that too actually, but super quick ones.

 

[SableWyvern]

Their magically tough scales make it less necessary for them to dodge and weave, thus making them more likely to make the save?

The same thought occurred to me. After a bit of thought, however, I realised that hp, DR and Elemental Resistance are all mechanics designed to perform this function - Ref saves are not.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

The same thought occurred to me. After a bit of thought, however, I realised that hp, DR and Elemental Resistance are all mechanics designed to perform this function - Ref saves are not.

Why not?

Another creature with the same hp, DR and resistance as a dragon, but without the scales could be more vulnerable (or less invulnerable) than the dragon.

I see it as a sum of the parts, with lots of things contributing

 

[KnowTheToe]

I look at it a little differently. I see the dragon as quick, but that most reflex saves reflect the toughness of the dragon. Its natural ability to shrug off damage.

 

[SableWyvern]

Each to their own.

On reflection, it just seemed to me that it is a little pointless to make a Reflex save represent something other than good reflexes, when there are other mechanics specifically designed to represent these things.

As an explanation of why dragons have good ref saves, your argument is fine. But I don't think that we should be in a position where we need to explain such a save - ie, I agree with whatisitgoodfor's sentiment, and any attempt to explain the saves seems to be a rationisation being made after the fact, when, IMHO, things should have been done the other way around.

Of course, it is possible the WotC had a perfectly good reason for the high saves in the first place, that could not have been covered by another more appropriate mechanic.

 

[Tsyr]

Sorry, I gotta say I think it could be represented a lot better than via ref save. I don't like that either. And ref saves are a bit more than dodging blows, IMO.

 

[Axiomatic Unicorn]

Well, do you disagree that cover should give a bonus to reflex saves? Think of it as the scales being basically cover for the more vulnerable parts of the dragon. Only instead of a complicated save bonus system, they make it simple by using the good save scale