Can someoone explain the "Daily Hate" for me?

[Lord Mhoram]

I've been discussing with [MENTION=6698278]Emerikol[/MENTION] how not having limited use powers shatters my immersion starting here. How if I want a fighter to be able to behave the way even I do in combat, some sort of limited use powers are essential.

I've been looking at that - and my style is very very close to Emerikol's - the closer the 1 to 1 mapping of what I do to what the character does helps immersion. I roll a die - this is an attack (or attack sequence) die roll=attack Pretty much one to one.
When I make tactical decisions I make them as the character - I consider character abilities to be things the character is aware of - his maneuvers, his tactics etc. When I as a player chose to use an abilities, then ipso facto (in my way of playing) so did my character. If the tactic he is using has a daily limit due to abstraction that in not explained in story - how does he choose to use it?

Assuming the party has some message spell or psionic link or something the mage can say "Back off I"m throwing a fire ball" the cleric could say "I'm going to turn these undead" what does a fighter say to prepare his party's responses to his action when he uses a daily power?

As I said, this isn't a playstyle for everyone, but it is the way I play - without that player decision=character decision / mechanics of abilities = abilities of character in story (even on why the character can only due it once a day) I have a lot less fun gaming. I game for the express purpose of immersion - combat I win, I win, if not I don't achieve my objective (don't have a lot of character death in 1 on 1 gaming). Either way gives me plenty of opportunity to see and feel what my character is seeing and feeling.

Edit - reading over the thread again - my goal in gaming is to become pure actor stance - so after an hour in the game I refer to the character as I instinctively and actually feel the emotion the character is feeling (be it rage, love, frustration etc) The whole point, for me, of gaming is to become someone else.

 

[FireLance]

That is also a problem with the "too tired" thing - if he is "too tired" to use the daily, but has another ability with same in game effects, then why is he too tired for one, but not the other?

The approach I take is that there are many ways to skin a cat - and to create any particular effect. Apparently, there are 67 ways to throw an opponent that are officially recognized by the Kodokan Institute (the headquarters of the worldwide judo community). Having received only very superficial martial arts training when I was younger, I can't be absolutely certain, but I'm fairly sure that not all of them would use the same set of muscles, or strain them to the same degree.

So, in a fantasy world, I have no problem with the idea that a martial character may only be able to create a specific effect once per day, but a similar (presumably less powerful) effect multiple times per day. Presumably, the former requires a great deal of effort from certain muscles in order to pull off, but the latter requires less effort or different muscles (but is also not as effective).

 

[MichaelSomething]

The approach I take is that there are many ways to skin a cat - and to create any particular effect. Apparently, there are 67 ways to throw an opponent that are officially recognized by the Kodokan Institute (the headquarters of the worldwide judo community). Having received only very superficial martial arts training when I was younger, I can't be absolutely certain, but I'm fairly sure that not all of them would use the same set of muscles, or strain them to the same degree.

So, in a fantasy world, I have no problem with the idea that a martial character may only be able to create a specific effect once per day, but a similar (presumably less powerful) effect multiple times per day. Presumably, the former requires a great deal of effort from certain muscles in order to pull off, but the latter requires less effort or different muscles (but is also not as effective).

I have the perfect counter argument for that! Sadly, it requires the use of a daily ability and I've already spent it on another forum...

 

[FireLance]

I have the perfect counter argument for that! Sadly, it requires the use of a daily ability and I've already spent it on another forum...

Choose Your Own Rejoinder:

1. Well, why don't you take a long rest and get back to me, then?

2. Your dailies cannot be used here, anyway. We only have EN-counter arguments.

3. It doesn't need to be perfect. Just pick an at-will counter argument that does half the job, spend an action point, and then use it twice.

 

[Underman]

Apparently, there are 67 ways to throw an opponent that are officially recognized by the Kodokan Institute (the headquarters of the worldwide judo community). Having received only very superficial martial arts training when I was younger, I can't be absolutely certain, but I'm fairly sure that not all of them would use the same set of muscles, or strain them to the same degree.

Poppycock. I do some karate, kickboxing, and krav maga, and I've never strained a set of muscles to any such degree that it mattered like a daily. Or to put it another way, unless you've injured a certain muscle, muscle fatigue is never the bottleneck for pulling off a second move. Martial arts involves the whole body. It's not like doing a hundred pushups that isolate only the chest muscles and now you're too tired to do another hundred pushups for the rest of the day.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But it's not just happening to see an opening. Dailies tend to do something special, so you don't just unleash them at a given opportunity - you plan for them, in some cases direct your allies' tactics around them.

So when a character has a daily he can use, he incorporates it into his party's tactics - and when he doesn't, he does not attempt to do so, despite not knowing in-character that the tactic would be ineffective on this occasion.

The character has the Daily available: He sees that there could be an opportunity to use it and direct his allies.
Later that day, he no longer has that Daily avaialble - he sees no opportunity for using that ability and does direct his allies to different choices according to the options he has now.

Why? Why does he no longer see it, just because he used it once, why can't he see it again.

Because the situation just doesn't come up, or not in a manner he feels he can use it. He may still see something where he could have used a particular trick, but he realizes he can't because the timing is off and he's not fast enough this time - he may even think that he was faster in the morning, but in the end, it doesn't matter, he knows he can't do it this time.

The character doesn't have control about all the whys, but he can see when something has a chance to work and when it doesn't.

Towards the end of the day, after having used several dailies, the character may note that he must be exhausted or out of luck - some near opportunities for his best tricks, but he was always off with the timing and footing so it could never really work.

For all we know, each missed attack by the character is actually him trying to use a maneuver associated with a daily power - but he just can't get it done and fails completely (so completely that even the usual Miss Effect or Effects don't happen).

 

[Underman]

The character has the Daily available: He sees that there could be an opportunity to use it and direct his allies.
Later that day, he no longer has that Daily avaialble - he sees no opportunity for using that ability and does direct his allies to different choices according to the options he has now.

No, that's wrong. In martial arts, you try frequently. You try constantly. Most of the time you don't succeed. You don't know if you will succeed unless you try. Your explanation above only relates to perceiving possible opportunities. No character can correctly predict the outcome. It's not chess. It's combat, it's dirty and unpredictable.

Unless perhaps you're against a very low skilled and weak opponent and you've seized up his skills and no hidden knives or the like, then you could probably pull off exactly what you wanted to (imagine like knocking down a small child), but in that case, it's not remotely a daily anymore; it's practically at-will.

Daily metagame can be roleplayed in Author and/or Director stance. It cannot be roleplayed in Actor stance. Unless it's something like Vancian magic where the character understands the limitations of the process as well as the outcome. This is NOT possible with martial maneuvers.

 

[Neonchameleon]

When I make tactical decisions I make them as the character - I consider character abilities to be things the character is aware of - his maneuvers, his tactics etc. When I as a player chose to use an abilities, then ipso facto (in my way of playing) so did my character.

To me the biggest thing to be aware of after yourself is your enemy. Where your enemies are in relation to each other. (Shoulder to shoulder or eight foot apart?) How they are balanced. Which directly they are looking at in any given second.

And I don't care how much detail the DM goes into. I can not get that level of information from the tabletop. Therefore if I were to try to get into my PC's head to know what to attack and how I would be absolutely crippled. What I can do is make a decision like my PC's. "In this position I have the opportunity to do this." Or I can make no decision at all about what are in character matters of life or death.

I find making a related decision to get me much closer to the head of my PC than making none at all.

Edit - reading over the thread again - my goal in gaming is to become pure actor stance - so after an hour in the game I refer to the character as I instinctively and actually feel the emotion the character is feeling (be it rage, love, frustration etc) The whole point, for me, of gaming is to become someone else.

Then why do you choose D&D of all things? D&D started out as a pure pawn stance hobby and there is no edition I would choose as positively supporting actor stance (many simply get in the way).

 

[FireLance]

Poppycock. I do some karate, kickboxing, and krav maga, and I've never strained a set of muscles to any such degree that it mattered like a daily.

Logically, all that implies is that you have never pulled off anything that resembles a martial daily ability. And it may even be impossible to pull off anything that resembles a martial daily ability in the real world. But (and here's the kicker - at least for me) I refuse to allow the real world to limit what I imagine could be possible for a heroic martial character in a fantasy world. All I need is some semi-plausible explanation, and ...

Or to put it another way, unless you've injured a certain muscle, muscle fatigue is never the bottleneck for pulling off a second move. Martial arts involves the whole body. It's not like doing a hundred pushups that isolate only the chest muscles and now you're too tired to do another hundred pushups for the rest of the day.

... there it is! Specific muscles can get injured or tired in the real world and make it impossible for real-world characters to repeat actions, either at all or at the same level of efficiency. That's enough of a justification for me to accept the existence of fantasy martial abilities that put so much strain on specific muscles that you can't repeat them until you've taken a long rest.

 

[FireLance]

Daily metagame can be roleplayed in Author and/or Director stance. It cannot be roleplayed in Actor stance. Unless it's something like Vancian magic where the character understands the limitations of the process as well as the outcome. This is NOT possible with martial maneuvers.

Maybe not in the real world, but this is a fantasy world that we're talking about. I'm not going to talk about overtly magical things like dragons and fireballs. It's a world that has apparently non-magical creatures that shouldn't exist in the real world - things like giant insects, hill giants and purple worms. So why not apparently non-magical martial daily abilities, as well?