Can the gods strip a paladin of his class?

irdeggman said:
Where in the world is this tie in of a deity and sorcerer's spellcasting coming from?

Same place as the connection between a deity and the paladin's powers, which is not in the RAW either.

To be explicit, it is quite up to the DM or the designer of a setting to declare what the powers and interests of the several gods are, and the DM or setting designer is perfectly free to decree under Rule Zero that a god can take away a sorceror's spellcasting ability for a defined transgression or even on a whim. Rule Zero, or the setting-designer's right to define the power of gods and the specifics of classes within his or her setting (if you think that is different) is the basis for the god's power over paladin class abilities. And on the same basis it can be applied to any character ability.
 

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Agback said:
I want to find out whether there is anything in the [current] rules of D&D that says that a paladin's paladiny powers are the gift of his or her god or persist during the pleasure of his or her god, or that the god has the power to judge, dispense, suspend, or waive the alignment and behavioural restrictions on paladins.

You cannot even solve this problem with a PHB which is not simply a book of rules, but a book of rules AND setting features (Greyhawk) constantly mixed together.
 

Lord Pendragon said:
You do realize that the above statement is guilty of exactly the same trespass that you've accused the general masses of in unspecified previous paladin threads? Assuming campaign-specific rules are core.

But that is not, I believe, what I am doing in that statement. What I am doing, or at least trying to do, is to point out that a DM's or setting designer's freedom to make setting-specific rules about paladins also allows them to make setting-specific rules about, for example, barbarians.

A DM (or setting designer) is perfectly within his or her rights to declare that in his or her setting the gods have a power over paladin's class abilities, and the only basis on which we can judge this is whether it suits our personal tastes or not: "I like that" or "I don't like that", not "that is wrong". On exactly the same basis, a GM or setting designer is free to declare that in his or her setting barbarian rage is the gift of Odin, or that ranger spells, being divine magic, are the discretionary gift of Gea Mater.
 

Agback said:
Same place as the connection between a deity and the paladin's powers, which is not in the RAW either.

To be explicit, it is quite up to the DM or the designer of a setting to declare what the powers and interests of the several gods are, and the DM or setting designer is perfectly free to decree under Rule Zero that a god can take away a sorceror's spellcasting ability for a defined transgression or even on a whim. Rule Zero, or the setting-designer's right to define the power of gods and the specifics of classes within his or her setting (if you think that is different) is the basis for the god's power over paladin class abilities. And on the same basis it can be applied to any character ability.

So you are using house-rules as a basis to define an answer based on the RAW?

Sorry - but this is then in the wrong thread.

If in your game sorcerers hae their spells being granted from the deities then they are by definition (see the PHB) divine casters and not arcane ones. But I guess you could house-rule this one too - back to this now in the wrong thread since it is not based on RAW.
 

Can the gods strip a paladin of his class?
The short answer is yes. The long answer is yes; followed by a wordy explanation. You seem like an intelligent enough person to have figured this out. The exact body of that lengthy explanation is up to the DM, whether you or someone else.

The rules are direct enough, and at the same time vague enough, to allow for this possibility, if the DM wants to do this. Your argument has set all these people to flipping through their PHBs when (presuming you have read the 3.0 PHB, if not the 3.5 version) you know the explicit wording does not directly say what gods can and cannot do. That is not the purpose of the PHB, that is what the Deities & Demigods book is for; to give DMs ideas on the capabilities of the gods in their games.

And this reason is based on the premise that we're talking about stripping powers as a result of some transgression, sin or evil act on the part of the paladin. If you mean in the broadest sense, then the answer is still yes. Gods are the tools of the DM, devices that allow the DM to interact within the world (campaign) he/she created and do so in a plausible manner. Since the campaign is shaped by the will of the DM, then the gods--under the direction of the DM--can take away a paladin's powers, or do anything else they darn well care to. But that is getting a bit fececious. On that note however, paladin's would be vulnerable to having their powers stripped because they do come from a divine source (whatever that may be) and if that divine source is a deity, or a deity could somehow block that divine source, then those powers are gone. Sorcerer's spells, Fighter's feats, these are all talents that are developed through those classes, they do not come from a divine source like the powers and spells of a paladin. They can be taken away through direct means by a god--such as Energy Drain, etc.--but they were not granted by a god, or divine source, to begin with.

My question: "Is this supported by the rules as written?"
See above.

I suspect not, because of the following:

1) The core rules allow a character to be a paladin without worshipping or serving any god at all. This argues that paladinhood is something that lawful good characters can generate for themselves. Becoming a paladin is accepting a metaphorical call, accepting a destiny.

2) LG gods can give cleric spells to LN and NG characters, but can't make them paladins. LN gods can give cleric spells to LN, N, and NE characters, NG gods to NG, N, and CG characters--but can't give them paladin powers. This argues that paladinhood is not subject to the whim of the gods.

3) The paladin class description makes no mention of paladinhood being bestowed by the gods or of gods taking it away. There is no more support for them doing this than for them taking away a sorceror's sorcerorhood.

4) The section on ex-Clerics says that clerics lose their spells if they grossly violate the code of conduct expected by their god. But the corresponding section on ex-paladins mentions grossly violating 'the code of conduct'--no mention is made of it being determined or judged by a god.
#1: Your statement does not argue anything. It allows for something. It allows that it is possible for a LG character to become a paladin regardless of religious belief. It allows that becoming a paladin can be a metaphorical call. It allows that they can be accepting a destiny. This statement does not support (or deny) your claim (that the gods cannot strip a paladin of his class), because your statements are not the exclusive means of becoming, and remaining, a paladin.

#2: You state two different outcomes; making one a paladin and giving one paladin powers. Those are two different things. Paladins in the PHB are LG, if a character is not LG, they cannot be a PHB paladin (though variants in UA and other sources are possible). But you are trying to limit what gods can and cannot do and there is no basis for that in the PHB. Many gods do have the power to change a character's alignment to LG and then give them levels in Paladin. Many gods do have the power to grant the powers of a paladin to someone who is not LG. If you want specifics, go read the Deities & Demigods since that deals with gods. But your argument here is not supported by your premises.

#3: This statement is incorrect. The support comes in a variety of ways in the paladin class description. You are just wanting it spelled out for you, which, having read the PHB you know it does not. See my answer to your initial question above. It's vague enough in the class description to allow it, while not being explicit enough to exclude other possibilities for the source of their power and/or the removal of such. Your comparison to sorcerer's is misleading as they do not suffer the limitations (following a code of conduct upon which continual use/possession of their powers demands) that paladins do and their powers do not come from the same source. The simple fact that paladin's powers do come from a divine source allows for the possibility that the divine source could be a deity and if it does, then the powers are bestowed by a deity, and if that deity doesn't want to continue giving those powers (such as if the paladin violated that deity's code of conduct), then the resultant loss of powers is already spelled out.

#4: No mention is made, true enough. But, again, you are questing for specifics where you know there are none. Just because it is not specifically mentioned does not mean your argument is supported by it. At the same time, no mention is made of it not supporting the idea of gods being the ones to judge and remove powers. This premise works equally well against you as for you, thus providing no extra validity to your argument.

In your haste to support your claims against and denounce others claims in favor of stripping paladins powers, you are ignoring the simple fact that many DMs are likely inserting the code of conduct for a deity that the paladin follows as the paladin's code of conduct, by unspoken (or minimally spoken) agreement with the player. They are also following along with that reasoning such that a) the paladin worships deity X; b) the paladin follows deity X's code of conduct in addition to what is listed in the class description and because of a) and b), then c) the paladin's powers come from deity X and because of c), then d) if the paladin violates b) then the paladin loses c) (his powers). This is not so much a house rule as you seem to assume, but campaign rules from the paladin class description fleshed out agreed upon by the player (of the paladin) and the DM. Thus, the people who posit this (more or less) are not "talking through their hats" but are sharing with you how paladins operate in their game and providing you with the answer to your initial question--as it relates to them and their games; which is what you wanted otherwise you wouldn't have made this topic.

So, the answer to your primary question is yes. And no.

What I am saying is that I cannot find the rule in the D&D core books that says or logically implies that:

1) Paladin's class abilities are given by their gods at will and retained during the god's pleasure.

2) That it is up to the judgement of a paladin's god (an NPC with the game world) whether the paladin has broken any of his or her class restrictions.

3) That a paladin's god can let him or her continue to exercise class abilities after ceasing to qualify for the class, as an act of forgiveness or mercy.

4) That a paladin's god can substitute an alternative (eg. reduced) penalty instead of stripping the powers from a paladin who no longer qualifies for the class.

5) That a paladin's god can require that the paladin go on a quest or perform some other penance as a condition of recovering class abilities.
#1-3: Already explained this above.
#4: See above. If a god grants a paladin his powers, then he can logically reduce them instead of stripping them all entirely. Personally, I think a paladin that makes a mistake should be happy to lose one ability for a day or two as a warning rather than all of them until he atones. While this is not specifically mentioned, it follows with the assumed (or explicitly stated agreement) about paladinhood between player/dm, that if a deity grants it, it can be reduced or otherwise limited as easily as taken away entirely.
#5: This is mentioned specifically in the description for the Atonement spell. Whether it is the paladin's god granting atonement or not seems irrelevant to the description of the spell, but it does mention questing and penance being involved in the atonement to prove the sincerity of the person seeking atonement.

You keep requesting specifics that you know are not there and are not meant to be there. The wording allows for it, and if you're going to DM a campaign that should be enough for you. If you can't comprehend that, you probably shouldn't be DM'ing anything anyway. The game is designed to give DMs (and players) the freedom to hammer out details in a manner that they like, instead of restricting what can and cannot be done. If you do understand that, then you're only arguing just to argue.
 

From the SRD RAW: a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells

The word divine means that the gained abilities are granted by a god (or goddess). If your campaign has no gods....then no paladins, clerics, druids, or spell casting rangers (bring back MM for rangers!!!!!) Paladins are the holy warriors (or unholy, axiomatic, whatever) of a certain dieties. Some do not have paladins (due to alignment, concept, etc.). Therefore, if you or people in your campaign wish to play a paladin be sure to understand that the code of conduct is granted by the diety you serve and poor service = loss of powers (also can lead to cool quests to regain said powers :D )

Oates
 


Oates said:
From the SRD RAW: a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells

The word divine means that the gained abilities are granted by a god (or goddess).

Not so, since the Ranger description in core rules explicitly states that rangers cast divine spells that are not granted by a deity.

Besides which, the word 'arcane' means 'secret'. Are you going to argue that wizards cast secret spells? And are you going to argue that a lich's phylactery contains Hebrew scriptures and is worn by Jewish men at morning prayers?
 

irdeggman said:
srd said:
Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.

Associates: While she may adventure with characters of any good or neutral alignment, a paladin will never knowingly associate with evil characters, nor will she continue an association with someone who consistently offends her moral code. A paladin may accept only henchmen, followers, or cohorts who are lawful good.

Ex-Paladins
A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.
Notice the entire lack of mention of any deity involvement. While a common perception (mostly a carry over from 2nd ed IMO) there is no requirement to have a deity - only a code of conduct. IMO this should be compatable with the paladin's diety (if he has one) but it is not a requirement.
That's the rule right there. All the God's stripping of powers is just fluff to describe this mechanic. You can play the rule any way that you like, as a DM.
 

irdeggman said:
So you are using house-rules as a basis to define an answer based on the RAW?

No, not at all. I am acknowledging that house rules about paladins may be good things and are allowed by Rule Zero, but pointing out this is not a special quality of paladins, the same is true of all classes.
 

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