Can we stop the Angel Summoner BMX Bandit comparisons

[Imaro]

Apropos to none of the previous discussion, my favorite example of this phenomenon is as follows:

BMX Bandit 3.x Fighter: "See that group of 15 kobold mooks standing in a tight group about a hundred feet away? I'll run into their midst using a surprise round, then I'll attack! Because I took Power Attack, I should be able to kill the most powerful one with my first attack. Then, because I took Cleave and Great Cleave, I should be able to kill every one of the mooks standing around me. Then I'll take my 5' step to get into range of more mooks, and attack again. Great Cleave will let me take out any others within reach. If they stand in the right pattern, I should be able to take out a dozen of them. Then you can swoop in behind me and clean up any leftover enemies I couldn't handle. Isn't it great that I spent all these feats to be prepared for just this situation?"

Angel Summoner 3.x Wizard: "Why don't I just cast Fireball?"

I'm just curious... but how is this any different from 4e? The Wizard in 4e would be able to do the exact same thing to a group of kobold minions and would leave the Fighter with nothing to attack afterwards. I've actually seen this happen in 4e games.

I'm sorry but this example seems to have alot more to do with utilizing good encounter design, and not bunching the kobolds up so that the Wizard's tactic is optimal and able to eliminate all of them. Just saying.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Angel Summoner isn't a problem. Any good GM will give the bad guys Angel Resistance. Or set the adventure in an Anti-Angel Zone.

Also, BMX Bandit can pop a wheelie and distract the bad guys, so he's contributing.

 

[Doug McCrae]

In one episode, they go along with the BMX Bandit's plan for once. And it goes very well, he's almost accomplished it...and then he realizes that the Angel Summoner has simply summoned invisible angels to help, to make him feel like he's contributing. One heck of a buff spell.

You're right, that is very much like a powerful buff spell. This is why Angel Summoner & the BMX Bandit is such a perfect example of power disparity, it has everything. I love it. I don't agree with Plane Sailing, it's great to show to people who don't understand the problem.

 

[Fifth Element]

To be fair, I don't really think fireball has ever been the spell most indicative of the issue people have with high-leveled wizards.

There are lower level examples, but I've got to think the best analogy would be for the wizard to cast 'gate' and . . . um . . . summon a swarm of angels.

Hah. Very good.

You're right about fireball. Fireball is never presented as a problem. Blaster wizards aren't really presented as a problem.

 

[Fifth Element]

Angel Summoner isn't a problem. Any good GM will give the bad guys Angel Resistance. Or set the adventure in an Anti-Angel Zone.

Also, BMX Bandit can pop a wheelie and distract the bad guys, so he's contributing.

This might be the greatest post I've ever seen.

 

[TanisFrey]

1) BMX Bandit apparently has the investigation/stealth/gather knowledge skills, and finds out what needs to be done.

Why cannot Angel Summer summon an army of invisible angels to go scouting?????? OOPPS BMX Bandit has just lost his only role.

The big problem with 3.5 were spells that let the mage be a better theif than the rougue (knock), or the spells that let the mage fight equal footing with a fighter (tenser transformation), or the series of spells that let the cleric be a far better fighter that the fighter (divine power/might/favor combo).

When Knock and Tenser Transformation were induced in 1st and 2ed, respective, there were other limits on wizards. In 1st/2nd ed your known spells were limited to a number based on your intelligence score. This made you think carefully about adding spells and keeping to the ones you know you would use. 3ed removed this, you add all spells you find to you spell book, and then make scrolls for those nitch spells like knock when you had the time/money/xp to write scrolls.

 

[rkwoodard]

I don't know? why didn't he?

Why cannot Angel Summer summon an army of invisible angels to go scouting?????? OOPPS BMX Bandit has just lost his only role.

The big problem with 3.5 were spells that let the mage be a better theif than the rougue (knock), or the spells that let the mage fight equal footing with a fighter (tenser transformation), or the series of spells that let the cleric be a far better fighter that the fighter (divine power/might/favor combo).

When Knock and Tenser Transformation were induced in 1st and 2ed, respective, there were other limits on wizards. In 1st/2nd ed your known spells were limited to a number based on your intelligence score. This made you think carefully about adding spells and keeping to the ones you know you would use. 3ed removed this, you add all spells you find to you spell book, and then make scrolls for those nitch spells like knock when you had the time/money/xp to write scrolls.

I actually thought that. That is why this example bugs me. What is going on in the back story/system that makes Angel Summoner totally useless except when it comes time to send in the HAMMER.

Are angels good at the other stuff? Seems that they are really only good at fighting, Or maybe the Angel Summoner is not good enough to direct them to do that.

We have no evidence to suggest that Angel Summoner is capable of doing the stuff that Bandit has apparently done to bring them to the video's point of action.

I know the anti-angel comments were snark, but as a GM, I would not put A.S. and BMX against normal thugs with no supernatural defense any more than I would put a 12 level party through Sunless Citadel.

RK

 

[MerricB]

We have no evidence to suggest that Angel Summoner is capable of doing the stuff that Bandit has apparently done to bring them to the video's point of action.

Actually, we have: in the third of the sketches, it's Angel Summoner who suggests that BMX Bandit do all the stuff to take out the criminals and the method for doing so. (To which BMX Bandit suggests that perhaps it would be better to summon the angels...)

All three sketches appear in the very first episode of series one of "That Mitchell and Webb Look", btw. We watched the episode last night.

Cheers!

 

[Tallifer]

The Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit video is simply too full of truth, real life experience and humour to ever be forgotten. I salute it as a terrific contribution to all roleplaying debates for all future generations.

The only proper response is for someone to make a video or comic strip equally as funny, truthy and experiential to promote his side of the debate.

 

[Janx]

I actually thought that. That is why this example bugs me. What is going on in the back story/system that makes Angel Summoner totally useless except when it comes time to send in the HAMMER.

Are angels good at the other stuff? Seems that they are really only good at fighting, Or maybe the Angel Summoner is not good enough to direct them to do that.

Actually, the angels seem quite capable of carrying a BMX bike and rider across an impossible chasm.

And in the final episode, it is Angel Summoner who works out the plan for BMX to execute because he's already got his angels in place to help BMX suceed.

I think you're intentionally reading less into the point that Angel Summoner can summon Angels to do anything to create a non-existant weakness in Angel Summoner's power as compared to BMX Bandit.