Can you apply the same metamagic feat twice?

[airwalkrr]

As above, can you have a Empowered Empowered Fireball? If you can, how would that math work? I'd assume 1.5+1.5 = Spell Damage x2, as per the D&D multiplying rules.

My interpretation of the metamagic rules (and D&D in general) is that if a benefit is not explicitly described, you cannot do it. So if a metamagic feat only describes you being able to apply it once, then I interpret that to mean that you can only apply it once. A good example is the difference between Extend Spell and Heighten Spell. Extend only lists doubling as a benefit, whereas Heighten effectively states that the sky is the limit.

 

[Hypersmurf]

So if a metamagic feat only describes you being able to apply it once, then I interpret that to mean that you can only apply it once.

Of course, in the case of metamagic feats, it's even simpler to interpret - as Harm pointed out (before he was permanently banned):

Multiple Metamagic Feats on a Spell: A spellcaster can apply multiple metamagic feats to a single spell. Changes to its level are cumulative. You can’t apply the same metamagic feat more than once to a single spell.

-Hyp.

 

[Veril]

The metamagic feat that really breaks when you apply it multiple times is Extend.

Take a high level cleric (i.e. 20th). He has +5 armour and shield that last for 120 hours. +5 weapons that last for 100 hours. For the next 3-4 days he still has the benefit of all of those spells without it costing him the spell slots. That's pretty damn impressive.

Same sort of thing applys to any other hour long or day long spell. Heck a 3rd level 10min per level spell lasts 1200 mins when extended up to 9th level.

Add in some caster level increases (Orange Ioun Stone, Death Knell etc) and the duration continues to spiral upwards and onwards.

This isn't exclusive to clerics, all other divine and arcane casters can get the same benefits as well. A Mage armour, extended multiply to be a 9th level spell lasts the best part of 7 days, you would never ever fight a mage without a mage armour up, and he only needs to recast it once a week.

The changes to the resists and stat buffs from 3 to 3.5 dropping the duration dramatically was a reaction to extend (and empower) being applied multiple times to the same spell. A Multiply empowered bulls strength made all items of +str useless.

 

[Li Shenron]

In 3.0, there were ways of breaking stacked metamagic, which the Sage made legal (boo!).

Examples please.

In 3.0 there was no Scorching Ray, and anyway Polar Ray notoriously isn't really a great spell.

Stacking the same metamagic was a (tiny) problem only in very specific cases of poorly designed supplementary material AFAIK, such as a couple of prestige classes' ability of getting a discount on the level increase (which anyway can be abused even with different mm feats), or the Sanctum Spell feat. Nothing that required a fundamental fix to the general stacking rule.

 

[Kerrick]

As above, can you have a Empowered Empowered Fireball? If you can, how would that math work? I'd assume 1.5+1.5 = Spell Damage x2, as per the D&D multiplying rules.

Yeah, that's about right.

Take a high level cleric (i.e. 20th). He has +5 armour and shield that last for 120 hours. +5 weapons that last for 100 hours. For the next 3-4 days he still has the benefit of all of those spells without it costing him the spell slots. That's pretty damn impressive.

There's a simple way to curb that one - either rule that a) a benefiicial spell (mage armor, stoneskin, animal buffs, whatever) in effect on a person lasts until that person goes to sleep; or b) it cannot be extended past 24 hours. I personally lean toward the second one, because "goes to sleep" could be (and perhaps rightly so) interpreted to cover being knocked unconscious or reduced to bleeding (-1).

The changes to the resists and stat buffs from 3 to 3.5 dropping the duration dramatically was a reaction to extend (and empower) being applied multiple times to the same spell. A Multiply empowered bulls strength made all items of +str useless.

Not only that, but a mid-level cleric could cast a bull's strength that lasted all day - that's how they got the nickname "breakfast spells".

Upper Krust actually has a workable system for stacking metamagic, and I use stacking metamagic for my legendary spell system - you have to, to be able to make large-scale effects in a level-based spell system.

 

[IcyCool]

as Harm pointed out (before he was permanently banned):

He was what now? How did I miss that? Usually, when that happens, there's an entertaining bonfire of a thread to read. Where was it?

 

[RigaMortus2]

You could of course do an Empowered + Sudden Empowered spell.

 

[Hypersmurf]

He was what now? How did I miss that? Usually, when that happens, there's an entertaining bonfire of a thread to read. Where was it?

In a House Rules Power Attack thread.

Not that entertaining - a standard three-day ban was upgraded when he used an alt to circumvent it.

-Hyp.

 

[IcyCool]

In a House Rules Power Attack thread.

Not that entertaining - a standard three-day ban was upgraded when he used an alt to circumvent it.

-Hyp.

Dangit, didn't he understand that it's all about the spectacle?

 

[Li Shenron]

The metamagic feat that really breaks when you apply it multiple times is Extend.

Take a high level cleric (i.e. 20th). He has +5 armour and shield that last for 120 hours. +5 weapons that last for 100 hours. For the next 3-4 days he still has the benefit of all of those spells without it costing him the spell slots. That's pretty damn impressive.

Same sort of thing applys to any other hour long or day long spell. Heck a 3rd level 10min per level spell lasts 1200 mins when extended up to 9th level.

Add in some caster level increases (Orange Ioun Stone, Death Knell etc) and the duration continues to spiral upwards and onwards.

This isn't exclusive to clerics, all other divine and arcane casters can get the same benefits as well. A Mage armour, extended multiply to be a 9th level spell lasts the best part of 7 days, you would never ever fight a mage without a mage armour up, and he only needs to recast it once a week.

The changes to the resists and stat buffs from 3 to 3.5 dropping the duration dramatically was a reaction to extend (and empower) being applied multiple times to the same spell. A Multiply empowered bulls strength made all items of +str useless.

Ok. I've never had these abuses from my players but I see your point...

It is powerful with the right spells. Let's anyway remember that the cleric is using a 9th level spell every 4 days. It's true that he is NOT using the slot 3/4 of days, but it's also true that he could just cast the non-metamagic version every single day using a 4th level slot (and perhaps he could have saved the feat, tho this is not granted).

What is more convenient?
a) use a 9th level slot every 4 days
b) use a 4th level slot every day

If your adventure action takes place one of those days when you need to cast it, using a 9th spell slot is much worse.

As a side note, we're talking about a 20th level character, a mid-level character (e.g. 13th level) is going at best to make it last 2 days.

As I said, I see your point. It just bothers me however that because of some high level abusive combinations they removed a rule which used to be a useful tactical options... Particularly, I used multiple Empower with several Sorcerers to help them cope with their limited amount of spells known.