Can you apply the same metamagic feat twice?

[Veril]

Mmm, I'm still thinking about it actually... not yet convinced that multiple Empowers were that bad

A 3.0 Bull's Strength gives 1d4+1, average 3.5, max +5 bonus to Str (2nd level spell).

Empowered once: average 5.25, max +7 to Str (4th level slot).
: average 7, max +10 to Str (6th level slot).

Empowered three times: average 8.75, max +12 to Str (8th level slot).

+12 is definitely a large bonus, but isn't it possible to get such high bonuses for example from Polymorph?

Empowered twice

An double empowered, doubly extended bulls strength (which is an 8th level slot) was possibly +10 for 45 hours - that's +5 to hit and damage for 2 days. Stick that on TOP of the polymorph...

Stick it on the party's fighter, no 8th level spell could compete with the damage that puts out over a day. That +5 means a lot more of the fighters 2nd and 3rd attacks hit, as well as adding to the damage of every blow. The fighter lands about 25% more hits, and each hit does 5 more damage, takes about 4 rounds to equal the damage of an equivalent polar ray spell. Thereafter the fighter just pulls away for damage.

 

[Rackhir]

Empowered twice

An double empowered, doubly extended bulls strength (which is an 8th level slot) was possibly +10 for 45 hours - that's +5 to hit and damage for 2 days. Stick that on TOP of the polymorph...

Stick it on the party's fighter, no 8th level spell could compete with the damage that puts out over a day. That +5 means a lot more of the fighters 2nd and 3rd attacks hit, as well as adding to the damage of every blow. The fighter lands about 25% more hits, and each hit does 5 more damage, takes about 4 rounds to equal the damage of an equivalent polar ray spell. Thereafter the fighter just pulls away for damage.

It's worth noting that under the 3.5 rules, empower can not be used with the stat buffing spells.

EMPOWER SPELL [METAMAGIC]

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

The stat boost from the various buff spells are now a flat +4. So the spells no longer meet the requirement that it have a "variable numeric effect". Also note the restriction "Nor are spells without random variables."

 

[Hypersmurf]

Ok on the stat boosts, but Simulacrum cannot be empowered more than once because it's 7th level...

Metamagic Rods from Tome and Blood, metamagic-cost-reducers like the 3E Incantatrix, Epic Spell Slots...

Even with just the Metamagic Rod, a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard had 102%-120% the level of the original - potentially up to 24th level. A Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard could potentially be 28th level. A Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard could potentially be 33rd level.

And eventually, you get a Simulacrum of such a high level that he can research an Epic spell that removes his bond of service to his progenitor, and he takes over the world.

-Hyp.

 

[Legildur]

Empowered twice

An double empowered, doubly extended bulls strength (which is an 8th level slot) was possibly +10 for 45 hours - that's +5 to hit and damage for 2 days.....

Problem is, one Dispel Magic can bring down that house of cards very quickly. And that seems a regular tactic at higher levels.

 

[Grog]

It might not seem broken. Empowering fireball twice = Delay blast Fireball, but without the delay part (or the higher DC). The problem is the balance is not true for all spells. Scorching Ray, 2nd level, Empowered 3 times, becomes more powerful than Polar ray, by alot. (3 rays, each dealing 10d6, for a total of 30d6, vs 1 ray ~20d6, less if the mage doesn't have a 20 caster level) Sure, it can't pierce a Globe of Invulnerability, but it's still 50% better than Polar ray.
I think the designers thought about this and just said flat 'no stacking' just in case...

Personally, I'm of the opinion that metamagicked spells should be better than ordinary spells of the same level. After all, you have to spend a feat in order to be able to cast the metamagicked spell, so there should be some benefit granted from it.

 

[Nifft]

And eventually, you get a Simulacrum of such a high level that he can research an Epic spell that removes his bond of service to his progenitor, and he takes over the world.

Ice-Pun!

- - -

I notice that Metamagic Rods in the SRD have a special note that only one Rod can be used on a given spell, but that they explicitly stack with regular metamagic spells. There's no note there about not stacking with the same metamagic feat, and the rod isn't technically a feat.

It's cheese, but is it legal cheese?

-- N

PS: Holy cow. I just came up with the true nerd porn: Barely Legal Cheese. It even sounds like regular porn.

 

[Li Shenron]

Metamagic Rods from Tome and Blood, metamagic-cost-reducers like the 3E Incantatrix, Epic Spell Slots...

Even with just the Metamagic Rod, a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard had 102%-120% the level of the original - potentially up to 24th level. A Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard could potentially be 28th level. A Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard could potentially be 33rd level.

And eventually, you get a Simulacrum of such a high level that he can research an Epic spell that removes his bond of service to his progenitor, and he takes over the world.

-Hyp.

You actually make it sound like a fantastic plot device

 

[Kerrick]

An double empowered, doubly extended bulls strength (which is an 8th level slot) was possibly +10 for 45 hours - that's +5 to hit and damage for 2 days.

It's worth noting that under the 3.5 rules, empower can not be used with the stat buffing spells.

[/quote]
Note the use of the word "was" here. I'm sure he knows that.

But really, if that combo was broken, why did they fix metamagic AND the buff spells? One or the other would have been fine, IMO. The same question could be applied to other spells as well - if it's only a half-dozen or a dozen spells (out of 600+) that are proving to be problems, wouldn't it be easier to simply fix those, instead of making a major change to the way metamagic works?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that metamagicked spells should be better than ordinary spells of the same level. After all, you have to spend a feat in order to be able to cast the metamagicked spell, so there should be some benefit granted from it.

Look at it this way - a normal spell is like a base class. A metamagicked spell is like a prestige class - it builds off the base class, but also excels in one or more facets. Granted, this isn't a totally accurate analogy, since you could (conceivably) increase every single facet of the spell at once - silent, stilled, empowered, extended, enlarged - but the level increase would be quite large. Polar ray, though, shouldn't be a L8 spell - it should be L3-4, or it should deal 1d8 damage/level.

Even with just the Metamagic Rod, a Double-Empowered Simulacrum of a 20th level wizard had 102%-120% the level of the original - potentially up to 24th level.

How can you empower the level? Level isn't a "variable, numeric effect" - it's a set number. The only variable here is what creature you choose to simulate.

I notice that Metamagic Rods in the SRD have a special note that only one Rod can be used on a given spell, but that they explicitly stack with regular metamagic spells. There's no note there about not stacking with the same metamagic feat, and the rod isn't technically a feat.

It's cheese, but is it legal cheese?

I'll bet if you asked the Sage, he'd say no, but a lot of people would use the argument that "if it doesn't explicitly state you can't do it, then it's legal." Personally, I'd say you could do it simply because, like you said, it's a magic item and a feat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But really, if that combo was broken, why did they fix metamagic AND the buff spells? One or the other would have been fine, IMO.

It's not the first time that's happened.

In the first printing of the 3E PHB, spells like Continual Flame and Dancing Lights were figments, and the figment subschool had a note stating "Figments cannot illuminate darkness".

They must have realised this was an issue, because when the second printing came out, Continual Flame and Dancing Lights were now Evocation [Light]... and the note in the figment subschool prohibiting figments from illuminating darkness was removed

How can you empower the level? Level isn't a "variable, numeric effect" - it's a set number. The only variable here is what creature you choose to simulate.

The simulacrum has 51-60% (50%+1d10%) of the hit points, level, etc of the original.

If we make a simulacrum of a 10th level character with 100 hit points, the simulacrum's hit points are randomly determined to be somewhere from 51-60, and the simulacrum's level is randomly determined to be somewhere from 5th to 6th. Hit points and level, for a 3E simulacrum, were variable numeric effects.

-Hyp.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The same question could be applied to other spells as well - if it's only a half-dozen or a dozen spells (out of 600+) that are proving to be problems, wouldn't it be easier to simply fix those, instead of making a major change to the way metamagic works?

The problem would include newer spells. I don't think new cool spells should be nerfed because someone didn't cap metamagic effects.