Can you be flanked by invisible opponents?

[Herzog]

Other discussions about invisibility triggered this:

Suppose you are surrounded by invisible opponents. (literally)
Are you flanked if you are not aware of them?
Are you flanked by one if you are aware of that particular invisible opponent, but not the one on the other side?
Are you flanked if one of them is visible, but you are unaware of the rest? And for which opponents would you be considered flanked?

I realise, of course, that most of these scenario's are irrelevant, since being invisible gives a better advantage than flanking in most cases.

However, especially for the rogue that has become visible by attacking, while his buddies are still surrounding the target invisible, it would be important to know whether he is considered flanking, allowing him to add sneak attack damage....

 

[Jhaelen]

Other discussions about invisibility triggered this:

Suppose you are surrounded by invisible opponents. (literally)
Are you flanked if you are not aware of them?
Are you flanked by one if you are aware of that particular invisible opponent, but not the one on the other side?
Are you flanked if one of them is visible, but you are unaware of the rest? And for which opponents would you be considered flanked?

The only important thing about flanking is that you have to threaten the opponent. It doesn't matter if the flanking creatures are visible or invisible to the opponent.

I realise, of course, that most of these scenario's are irrelevant, since being invisible gives a better advantage than flanking in most cases.

It's hardly irrelevant since the attack bonuses stack (+2 from flanking and +2 from being invisible).

However, especially for the rogue that has become visible by attacking, while his buddies are still surrounding the target invisible, it would be important to know whether he is considered flanking, allowing him to add sneak attack damage....

Sure!

 

[billd91]

Other discussions about invisibility triggered this:

Suppose you are surrounded by invisible opponents. (literally)
Are you flanked if you are not aware of them?
Are you flanked by one if you are aware of that particular invisible opponent, but not the one on the other side?
Are you flanked if one of them is visible, but you are unaware of the rest? And for which opponents would you be considered flanked?

I realise, of course, that most of these scenario's are irrelevant, since being invisible gives a better advantage than flanking in most cases.

However, especially for the rogue that has become visible by attacking, while his buddies are still surrounding the target invisible, it would be important to know whether he is considered flanking, allowing him to add sneak attack damage....

At some point, you do enter into common sense and house rule territory. If the creature being "flanked" isn't aware of the flankers at all, then I'd have trouble declaring him flanked. I know the rules say nothing about the perception of the flanked creature's perceptions being involved, but if there's been no indication that he's hemmed in from both sides, I'm not imposing the condition at any tables I'm running.
If he knew they were there, either by making a successful listen check or because they had attacked him before (while remaining invisible), then I'm onboard with considering him flanked.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

Yes, I would concur with billd91. That makes good sense.

The rogue definitely gets sneak attack if he has invisible friends along that he knows about. A fun, lethal combination for DMs is four rogues with improved invisibility.

Player: Ow! Hey! WTF?
DM: You see nothing.
Player: I move to get away. OW! Hey! Double WTF?
DM: You still see nothing.

 

[Man in the Funny Hat]

Flanking results in a bonus to the flankers, not a penalty to the target. What is then logically important is not if the TARGET is aware of being flanked, but if the FLANKERS are able to percieve each other. Just MHO.

 

[blargney the second]

Because of the way D&D combat is abstracted, we've taken to ruling that threatening a combatant while you're invisible counts as attacking for purposes of ending the invisibility spell. So no flanking while invis unless you've got greater invis.
-blarg

 

[Theroc]

At some point, you do enter into common sense and house rule territory. If the creature being "flanked" isn't aware of the flankers at all, then I'd have trouble declaring him flanked. I know the rules say nothing about the perception of the flanked creature's perceptions being involved, but if there's been no indication that he's hemmed in from both sides, I'm not imposing the condition at any tables I'm running.
If he knew they were there, either by making a successful listen check or because they had attacked him before (while remaining invisible), then I'm onboard with considering him flanked.

While I'm no expert on D&D's mechanics at this point, I'd have to disagree, Bild.

If I intend to flank someone, I don't want them aware of it. The bigger a surprise the flank is, the more likely you are to overwhelm your adversary. Flanking in general terms is just coming at either side rather than head on.

So, it doesn't matter if the victim is aware or not, so long as he cannot turn to face you.

So, I don't see why being invisible would make one unable to flank, as far as logic goes, though I can see it potentially being abused horribly, so house rules to limit the abuse may be in order.

Just my two cents, and no disrespect intended, Bild.

 

[Varianor Abroad]

I took what Billd91 wrote to mean what the Man in the Funny Hat said, FWIW. Now I can see that it could be interpreted differently, so yeah, if the invisible flanker aren't aware of each other, no flanking.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

While I'm no expert on D&D's mechanics at this point, I'd have to disagree, Bild.

If I intend to flank someone, I don't want them aware of it. The bigger a surprise the flank is, the more likely you are to overwhelm your adversary. Flanking in general terms is just coming at either side rather than head on.

So, it doesn't matter if the victim is aware or not, so long as he cannot turn to face you.

So, I don't see why being invisible would make one unable to flank, as far as logic goes, though I can see it potentially being abused horribly, so house rules to limit the abuse may be in order.

Just my two cents, and no disrespect intended, Bild.

Look at it this way. Flanking forces the target to focus on two different foes and thus make himself a little more vulnerable to each. If I do not know someone is behind me at all then I am only focusing on the person in front of me. So the person I see gains no advantage till the invisible flanker behind attacks me and draws my attention to the fact that I am flanked.

As a DM I would rule that the visible attacker gains no bonus but the invisible attacker gains a a larger bonus as his target is completely unaware he is there. Once the invis attacks and becomes visible the flanking bonus becomes normal.

 

[Herzog]

Let's assume all but one of the attackers have improved invisibility, and one attacker is visible. All are rogues.

round 1:
The defender is unaware of the (invisible) attackers.
Since the reasoning behind 'flanking' is that the defender has to devide his attention, I would rule: no flanking bonus, but the attacks by the invisible oponents will catch the defender flatfooted.
round 2:
The defender is aware of the attackers (since they have just attacked him)
So, flanking bonus for the visible attacker. Not sure about the invisible attackers. Is the defender still considered flatfooted because they are invisible? They will get a flanking bonus.
round 3:
All invisible attackers take a 5' step away.
Does the visible attacker get a flanking bonus if the defender is under the impression he is still flanked?