D&D 5E Can you cast an Area Damage Spell if you are under the "Hopelessness" Symbol?

[FitzTheRuke]

I don't think you can have the cake and eat it too.

I don't agree. Context is extremely important. Casting Fireball because it "technically doesn't target anyone" sounds like someone trying to game the system. Casting Wall of Fire, OtOH, might seem like someone trying to game the system, depending on if they're trying to maximize how many enemies they "accidently" get with it, or it might be playing along with the spirit of the hopeless sigil, if they say, "It's hopeless, we're all gonna die if we don't retreat. I'll throw a wall across the room, and let's get out of here."

I don't think you have to get carried away with it either way.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This just came up in the Vecna fight, so I'm curious on people's thoughts.

Here is the spell text for the portion of the symbol spell.

Hopelessness: Each target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the target is overwhelmed with despair for 1 minute. During this time, it can't Attack or target any creature with harmful Abilities, Spells, or other magical Effects.


So its clear as a bell that I couldn't cast like a dominate person or something. But can I still use an area damage spell like a fireball?

fireball doesn't target a creature... I would allow it but extra boocoo pts if they aimed teh fireball to hit themselves too since they are in hopelessness

 

[GMforPowergamers]

natural language version would say something like, "It can't try to harm other creatures." Simple, succinct, and makes it clear that the DM is going to have to rule on exactly what constitutes "trying to harm."

yeah something like that or "under this effect you cant take actions against others"

 

[DND_Reborn]

I think a very easy way to rule this is: if a creature is affected by a spell, it is a target of the spell.

That is the natural language use JC was talking about IMO.

Now, some spells require you to choose the target(s). Others are AoE and the area dictates which creatures become targets. "Targeting" a creature is not a term in 5E, it is just the natural language use of a creature that is chosen or in the region affect by a spell.

For hopelessness you cannot do harmful spells that result in creatures becoming targets. Now, you can do spells that target a creature that when that spell, in and of itself, is not harmful. Consider faerie fire for instance. It doesn't harm any creature affected by it, even though it makes those who fail their save easier to hit.

For myself, concerning wall of fire, if the spell landed on any space occupied by a creature, that creature becomes a target of the spell's damage and under hopelessness you could NOT put the wall there. Now, nothing would prevent you from putting up the wall, otherwise, if all the spaces you choose were unoccupied.

That's my take on it all.

 

[Baron Opal II]

Here is the spell text for the portion of the symbol spell.

Hopelessness: Each target must make a Charisma saving throw. On a failed save, the target is overwhelmed with despair for 1 minute. During this time, it can't Attack or target any creature with harmful Abilities, Spells, or other magical Effects.

So its clear as a bell that I couldn't cast like a dominate person or something. But can I still use an area damage spell like a fireball?

For me, I would say no since they are making an aggressive action against others. Since the target is in despair, I could buy them casting a fireball at their feet wholly indifferent to who might be in range of the blast.

 

[Stormonu]

I wouldn't have allowed it, unless you wanted to target yourself "and get it over with."

 

[Stormonu]

Ah, the clarity and simplicity of "natural language" in action. Truly, O brave new world, that has such rules in't!

Well, that's why we have DMs who are human, not computer programs or flowcharts.

 

[cbwjm]

My question mostly lies at the intersection of these two things. What about a situation where you're dropping wall of fire in order to prevent people from following you? You don't want to target any of them--you WANT them to stay AWAY from the fire, because that lets you get away.

And since that would hinder the enemy, I'd say that no, you can't cast it due to the hopelessness spell effect.

 

[DND_Reborn]

My question mostly lies at the intersection of these two things. What about a situation where you're dropping wall of fire in order to prevent people from following you? You don't want to target any of them--you WANT them to stay AWAY from the fire, because that lets you get away.

As long as the spaces where the wall is placed doesn't hit any space occupied by a creature, you aren't targeting anything, so have at it!

After the spell is cast, if the creature choose to target itself by entering the wall, that is on them.

 

[James Gasik]

Perhaps Vecna should research the more potent Symbol of Nihilism...plenty of Doomguard in Sigil to practice on. Unless he's currently in God-mode, then he probably should avoid the Lady.