Can you cleave after making an AoO?

[Tony Vargas]

While I quite like this idea, isn't it a problem that you only provoke AoOs when you act? So when I have Cleave and drop X on an AoO, nobody else will be provoking AoOs because it is is X's turn. Am I missing something?

Yep, that's a problem with it. A lot of DMs do use simultaneous actions for masses of creatures (the most likely time such a thing comes up). What he meant by 'like Combat Reflexes' is the idea that if you drop someone with an AoO, you get to take the Cleave at a later initiative, if someone else provokes an AoO from you. Cleave attacks must be taken 'immediately' - but 'immediately' is a relative term when it's not your action.... you're not going to be doing /anything/ else between AoOs, since it's not your action. Strikes me as immediate enough...

 

[Tony Vargas]

Yep. I also understood them to be real creatures, with them being brought to you from another location and returning there afterwards, and in that case, whirlwind-great-cleaving them would most definately result in an alignment change.

They are certainly real creatures - but the standard Summon Monster brings them from another plane, and, whether they're 'killed in the line of duty' or not, they return there, alive, when the spell is expired.

Summon Nature's Ally may be different - but then Druids always get the short end of the stick...

And, if you want to hold the caster morally responsible, ordering a celestial badger to attack an ogre (for instance) probably isn't much nicer than cleaving it or ordering it off a cliff. Heck, the only acceptable use of Monster Summoning might be to call up evil critters and righteously smite them....

In any case, even if you want to stand by that idea, there's always shadow conjuration. The creatures created aren't 'real' in any moral sense - but they're real enough to cleave (they have some shadow substance and real hps to them).

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Yep. I also understood them to be real creatures, with them being brought to you from another location and returning there afterwards, and in that case, whirlwind-great-cleaving them would most definately result in an alignment change.

For squashing a few Fiendish Dire Rats? That is really reaching. Besides, they are not actually dead.

Summoning: The spell instantly brings a creature or object to a place the character designates. When the spell ends or is dispelled, a summoned creature is instantly sent back to where it came from.... A summoned creature also goes away if it is killed or dropped to 0 hit points. It is not really dead. It takes 24 hours for the creature to reform, during which time it can't be summoned again. [emphasis added]

 

[kreynolds]

For squashing a few Fiendish Dire Rats?

Summoning a creature, that is bound by magic to help you, for the sole purpose of slaughtering that creature, you're damned right that would earn you an alignment change, at least.

That is really reaching.

I got somethin' you can reach for. Sorry, I just got back from the Joe Cartoon website. Damn I forgot how funny those cartoons are!

Besides, they are not actually dead.

It doesn't matter. See first comment. Also, if you tell me that your character has constant thoughts of slaughtering innocent people, but your character is Chaotic Good, not anymore he isn't.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Wow another AoO + Cleave thread. I thought we had hammered this one into the ground last time around. I'm not going to get into the discussion on which is right or wrong since I think both parties know how the rules operate as written. It all boils down to what is balanced and what isn't balanced. I personally think AoO + Cleave is okay but my party doesn't try to abuse the rules or take advantage of rule loop holes.
However I did think I'd drop this tidbit of information about the Summon Monster + attack ally + Cleave tatic. The summon monster spell specificially states it will attack the nearest enemy of the caster to the best of its abilities, unless the caster can communicate with the creature. This will be very difficult for arcane spell casters since most of the lower level summoned monsters are unintelligent Celestial/Fiendish animals. Arcane spellcasters don't have the ability to communicate with animals therefore they can't command them. That being said if a spell caster did tell the summoned reature to attack a fellow party member, that would be a violation of alignment (unless the party was evil).

Just my $.02


[edit] Doh HTML Tags in a post! [/edit]

 

[KarinsDad]

Summoning a creature, that is bound by magic to help you, for the sole purpose of slaughtering that creature, you're damned right that would earn you an alignment change, at least.

I find this argument specious.

Dead is dead.

Bringing it in and letting it die by fighting an opponent is not significantly morally superior to bringing it in and killing it yourself. In either case, you spend that life for your own personal gain.

PS. On what thread page is Tony's suggestion. I want to read it without reading everything in the thread.

 

[kreynolds]

I find this argument specious.

Good for you. Care to explain?

Dead is dead.

Bringing it in and letting it die by fighting an opponent is not significantly morally superior to bringing it in and killing it yourself. In either case, you spend that life for your own personal gain.

Wow. I thought I had loose morals.

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Baron Von StarBlade,

It is not as much as a problem as you might think. You get good control in placing Summoned creatures and they will beeline for an enemy. If the guy you are setting up to reap the AoOs has reach, it doesn't require much thought.

At medium-high levels a Wand of Shadow Conjuration would be the way to go. 420 gp to generate 2-5 AoOs with no delay. May seem a little pricey but there are a lot of type spots where you are up against weird creatures with SR and unknown immunities: melee attacks with a high plus weapon is the only sure thing.

From a ruleslawyer perspective, the trick is to use any low level illusion spell and get exactly the imaginary creatures you need. They can even disappear after your fighter's actions to eliminate any blowback.

 

[Elric]

Please. Alignment change debates don't make a darn bit of difference when the villain uses his amazing blind kobold tactics to kill anyone near him every round (Whirlwind Attack + Combat Reflexes + Great Cleave).

Baron- merely running by the party fighter in order to attack the enemy is enough to trigger an AoO. No communication is required to get a creature to do that, so it should never be a problem.

 

[Jens]

Summoning a creature, that is bound by magic to help you, for the sole purpose of slaughtering that creature, you're damned right that would earn you an alignment change, at least.

I disagree. The creature doesn't die, doesn't remember what has happened, is in no way affected by having been summoned. I'd say Summon Monster has about as many moral implications as Fireball. (Of course, one may use a variant interpretation of Summon Monster where this isn't true. I think such a variant is suggested in Tome and Blood?)

Back on topic:
Isn't the simplest 'fix' for this cleaving business to simply ban cleaving off AoOs (and WWA)? I think that would be quite reasonable, too. Are there any official examples of Cleave or Great Cleave being triggered by an AoO or WWA? Either way, I would see that as an indication of the intention behind the feats.