Can you Cleave with Lay on Hands?

[Wolfwood2]

This is a potentially relevant question. I am playing a paladin with Cleave, and in tonight's game we are definitely going to be facing some undead. Lay on Hands is a useful weapon against undead.

Now I would imagine you couldn't Cleave with a touch attack spell, because it gets exhausted after you use it once. However, my paladin could potentially only use some of his Lay on Hands, reserving some of it for the Cleave attack.

Thoughts?

 

[evilbob]

Cleave
If you deal a creature enough damage to make it drop (typically by dropping it to below 0 hit points or killing it), you get an immediate, extra melee attack against another creature within reach. You cannot take a 5-foot step before making this extra attack. The extra attack is with the same weapon and at the same bonus as the attack that dropped the previous creature. You can use this ability once per round.

Lay on Hands (Su)
... Using lay on hands is a standard action.

You can't cleave with Lay on Hands because it's not an attack. And you can't use it once you start cleaving.

 

[James McMurray]

I'd say that you can definitely cleave off of Lay on Hands. It's an attack like any other.

What you can't do is use Lay on Hands with the cleave attack because that would require activating LoH again, but it's a standard action to use it.

 

[3d6]

I'd say that you can definitely cleave off of Lay on Hands. It's an attack like any other.

What you can't do is use Lay on Hands with the cleave attack because that would require activating LoH again, but it's a standard action to use it.

If you can't use lay on hands with the Cleave attack, you can't use it with Cleave, as the extra attack must be made with the same weapon as the attack that dropped the opponent.

 

[XCorvis]

It's roughly the same as a touch spell, so if you can cleave off CLW, you can do it off Lay on Hands. Note that because the same weapon is required, even if your DM did allow this, you'd basically just poke them with your finger for no damage. It would take you another standard action to activate the power, which you don't have.

Edit: Er, what James said.

 

[ThirdWizard]

So what you need is a feat that turns LoH into a free action.

That sounds like a reasonable feat to me.

 

[Wolfwood2]

So what you need is a feat that turns LoH into a free action.

That sounds like a reasonable feat to me.

Make it a Swift action instead.

Anyway, seems my question has been answered pretty definitively. Thanks guys.

 

[ThirdWizard]

Make it a Swift action instead.

Well, if it were a swift action, you could only do it 1/round, so you still couldn't Cleave with it.

Since the ability has a cap of the damage/healing per day, I don't see a problem with allowing it "unlimited" times per day. It won't really be unlimited. At best you could heal a bunch of people for a little bit, or deal 1 damage to an undead 20 times in a round (perhaps a problem for that one undead creature that takes extra damage per strike), but nothing too overpowered.

 

[rvalle]

Well, if it were a swift action, you could only do it 1/round, so you still couldn't Cleave with it.

I think he meant start a Lay on Hands as a Standard Action, touch and drop Badguy1, start another Lay on Hands as a Swift Action and Cleave.

If you wanted to go this route (doubtfull) you could create another feat that allowed it as a Free Action and thus do a Greater Cleave type thing with it.

rv

 

[Wolfwood2]

Well, if it were a swift action, you could only do it 1/round, so you still couldn't Cleave with it.

Since the ability has a cap of the damage/healing per day, I don't see a problem with allowing it "unlimited" times per day. It won't really be unlimited. At best you could heal a bunch of people for a little bit, or deal 1 damage to an undead 20 times in a round (perhaps a problem for that one undead creature that takes extra damage per strike), but nothing too overpowered.

Well I'm leery of unexpected synergies.

For one thing, the primary reason to take such a feat would not be so that you could Cleave with Lay on Hands. It would be so that you could heal yourself in the middle of battle without losing a round of attacks. Cleaving would just be a nice by-product.

Given the number of paladin spells in Spell Compendium that are Swift actions, I think it's better to make Lay on hands compete with those. A paladin about to heal himself and launch a full attack (perhaps powered by a turning feat) and cast a spell all in the same round seems a bit much.