Can you coup de grace with an Inflict Wounds spell?

[atom crash]

Although, generally speaking, you can't used a ranged weapon-like spell in a CDG.

The reason you can use a melee weapon-like spell in a CDG is because you can hold the charge until your next round, and the perform the full-round action.

You can't hold the charge on most (if not all) ranged weapon-like spells.

I agree. My statement of course assumes that the attack with the weapon-like spell would meet all the other criteria as well (you can hold the charge, you're adjacent to the opponent, the works).

I haven't scoured my books looking for a ranged weapon-like spell that allows you to hold the charge, and I was keeping it open for feats/abilities that allow you to convert touch spells to ranged touch attacks and spells/feats/abilities that haven't yet been written, so I was avoiding making an absolute statement.

If you don't have a bow or crossbow you can't make a ranged CdG.

Technically, you can't make a ranged CDG at all. You can make a CDG with a ranged weapon if you're adjacent to the target and you have one of the weapons listed.

By my interpretation, you could make a CDG with any other weapon or weapon-like spell that is sufficiently similar to those listed, as long as you also fulfill the other criteria. Whether that is a house rule or a lenient interpretation fo the RAW is still under debate.

 

[Egres]

Just curious, what's your position on flame blade? Would that constitute a melee weapon?

Nope.

"......yer not from 'round here, are ye?"

Approximately 4.943,71 miles far.

By my interpretation, you could make a CDG with any other weapon or weapon-like spell that is sufficiently similar to those listed, as long as you also fulfill the other criteria. Whether that is a house rule or a lenient interpretation fo the RAW is still under debate.

"Lenient interpretation of the RAW"...what RAW?!?

 

[werk]

I think it comes down to the question, is 'armed' the same as 'a melee weapon'?

"Armed" Unarmed Attacks
Sometimes a character’s or creature’s unarmed attack counts as an armed attack. A monk, a character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat, a spellcaster delivering a touch attack spell, and a creature with natural physical weapons all count as being armed.

Note that being armed counts for both offense and defense (the character can make attacks of opportunity)

Since you can make AoO, the caster threatens and is considered armed by RAW. If you are armed, why can't you CdG?

 

[irdeggman]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infiniti2000
So a natural weapon isn't a melee weapon? Is it an unarmed attack instead?

from Egres
Quote:
Originally posted by Egres
It's an unarmed attack, like the PHB states

Let's do a little more reading, these are quotes from the SRD that IMO disprove this statement and reinforce the fact that a natural attack is indeed a weapon and a melee weapon when used in melee.

Natural Weapons: Natural weapons are weapons that are physically a part of a creature. A creature making a melee attack with a natural weapon is considered armed and does not provoke attacks of opportunity. Likewise, it threatens any space it can reach. Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons. The number of attacks a creature can make with its natural weapons depends on the type of the attack—generally, a creature can make one bite attack, one attack per claw or tentacle, one gore attack, one sting attack, or one slam attack (although Large creatures with arms or arm-like limbs can make a slam attack with each arm). Refer to the individual monster descriptions.

Unless otherwise noted, a natural weapon threatens a critical hit on a natural attack roll of 20.

When a creature has more than one natural weapon, one of them (or sometimes a pair or set of them) is the primary weapon. All the creature’s remaining natural weapons are secondary.

The primary weapon is given in the creature’s Attack entry, and the primary weapon or weapons is given first in the creature’s Full Attack entry. A creature’s primary natural weapon is its most effective natural attack, usually by virtue of the creature’s physiology, training, or innate talent with the weapon. An attack with a primary natural weapon uses the creature’s full attack bonus. Attacks with secondary natural weapons are less effective and are made with a –5 penalty on the attack roll, no matter how many there are. (Creatures with the Multiattack feat take only a –2 penalty on secondary attacks.) This penalty applies even when the creature makes a single attack with the secondary weapon as part of the attack action or as an attack of opportunity.

Natural weapons have types just as other weapons do. The most common are summarized below.

Bite: The creature attacks with its mouth, dealing piercing, slashing, and bludgeoning damage.

Claw or Talon: The creature rips with a sharp appendage, dealing piercing and slashing damage.

Gore: The creature spears the opponent with an antler, horn, or similar appendage, dealing piercing damage.

Slap or Slam: The creature batters opponents with an appendage, dealing bludgeoning damage.

Sting: The creature stabs with a stinger, dealing piercing damage. Sting attacks usually deal damage from poison in addition to hit point damage.

Tentacle: The creature flails at opponents with a powerful tentacle, dealing bludgeoning (and sometimes slashing) damage.

Note that they are referred to as Natural Weapons.

Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions. With a typical reach weapon, you can strike opponents 10 feet away, but you can’t strike adjacent foes (those within 5 feet).

Melee and Ranged Weapons: Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well. Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee.

Strike, Unarmed: A Medium character deals 1d3 points of nonlethal damage with an unarmed strike. A Small character deals 1d2 points of nonlethal damage. A monk or any character with the Improved Unarmed Strike feat can deal lethal or nonlethal damage with unarmed strikes, at her option. The damage from an unarmed strike is considered weapon damage for the purposes of effects that give you a bonus on weapon damage rolls.

An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon. Therefore, you can use the Weapon Finesse feat to apply your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to attack rolls with an unarmed strike.

And an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon and is a melee weapon when used in melee. That is the definition of a melee weapon.

Per the equipment description table an unarmed strike is a weapon (under simple weapons).

 

[Peter Gibbons]

I'm saddened to see so many people getting this one completely wrong.

Yes, you can CdG with an inflict spell (or any weapon-like spell, for that matter). And yes, you could also deal double damage with a weapon-like spell on a Spirited Charge, etc. Essentially, anything that (1) deals lethal damage and (2) can score a critical hit can CdG.

Those of you who insist that CdG cannot be performed with a natural weapon (for example) aren't seeing the forest due to all the trees.

 

[Egres]

And an unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon and is a melee weapon when used in melee. That is the definition of a melee weapon.

Per the equipment description table an unarmed strike is a weapon (under simple weapons).

You couldn't be more wrong.

An unarmed strike isn't a melee weapon, because:

1) It's listed in the weapon table before the melee weapons, and it's not classified as one of them.

Take another look at it.

2) Striking for damage with punches, kicks, and head butts is much like attacking with a melee weapon, except for the following:

If it's "much like", it can't be it.

3) Doesn't match the glossary definition.

4) melee weapons are made for making melee attacks.

Apples can be eaten.

Can you eat oranges?

 

[Egres]

I'm saddened to see so many people getting this one completely wrong.

Yes, you can CdG with an inflict spell (or any weapon-like spell, for that matter). And yes, you could also deal double damage with a weapon-like spell on a Spirited Charge, etc. Essentially, anything that (1) deals lethal damage and (2) can score a critical hit can CdG.

Those of you who insist that CdG cannot be performed with a natural weapon (for example) aren't seeing the forest due to all the trees.

Wow.

I have never seen so many statements without proofs to support them.

You have convinced me.

 

[FireLance]

As you can see they covered everything could regard a weapon-like spell in combat.

This means that the list of what they can do is exclusive.

...

Unfortunately the CdG rule was already existant when they printed the CA.

And, as the Jester pointed out, the lists don't say anything about CDG and don't cover everything. Taking the position that the list of things you can do is exhaustive is no different from taking the position that the list of things you cannot do is exhaustive.

Something your touch spell doesn't match with.

As mentioned, the definition of melee weapons also doesn't cover improvised weapons. If you make an exception for improvised weapons, why not for natural weapons and weaponlike spells?

I haven't scoured my books looking for a ranged weapon-like spell that allows you to hold the charge

Produce flame is one example I can think of. It works both as a touch spell and as a ranged spell.

 

[Infiniti2000]

I said: "So a natural weapon isn't a melee weapon? Is it an unarmed attack instead?"

It's an unarmed attack, like the PHB states.

But, an unarmed attack is "a melee attack made with no weapon in hand." How can a creature have a weapon (natural), yet not have a weapon? From the definition, a natural weapon is clearly a weapon?

Although, quite honestly, the unarmed attack definition is inherently contradictory. According to it, if I am a naked monk with no items at all, I make an unarmed attack when I headbutt. However, put a dagger in my hand and my headbutt is technically not an unarmed attack because I have "a weapon in hand." That would be a ridiculous inane reading, though, much like this whole discussion.

Egres, do you really disallow a natural weapon as part of a CDG, or are you just trying to yank some chains around here?

 

[Teemu]

I allow coup de grace with weapon-like spells. In fact, I allow them with ranged weapon-like spells. And I allow you to do it in a single round, i.e. you don’t have to cast the spell the round before. Why? Because you make a coup de grace with a crossbow or a bow using only one arrow/bolt. Firing one arrow/bolt is a standard action, so is casting a (ranged or melee) touch spell and attacking with it in the same round.

Do I make any sense?