D&D 5E can you do a mega-dungeon in 5th Edition?

[JmanTheDM]

is it even possible? no, seriously!

of course playing an adventure of walking through a dungeon is of course possible, but running a meg-dungeon (old school style) as it's own self-contained entity. What would need to change in how a dungeon is presented to make it possible? some of the things that I can think of off the top of my head.

- Fast level advancement at low levels vs. old school, slow level advancement and VERY HIGH 1st level mortality
- XP for treasure, vs. milestone and "story" awards based XP. how would encounter design have to change to incorporate milestones and story awards?
- emphasis on "role playing" to earn Inspiration vs. no real way to do that in past editions.
- short and long rests vs. attrition warfare and strategic thinking of "do we enter into 1 more door?" how does a dungeon layout change based on this?
- Easy Player death vs 5th edition where player death is relatively hard (when compared to earlier - pre-4th - editions)
- modern play de-emphasizes Hirelings and torchbearers vs. a ready supply to provide cannon fodder and a HP buffer
- Insta-death traps and deadly encounters (contact poison, save or die) has pretty much gone away.


I wanted to create a "mega-dungeon", that "felt" like RA or ToEE but utilized 5th RAW as the base system, how would one go about doing that?

Cheers,
J.

 

[jgsugden]

Yes. It is about as well suited for it as AD&D through 3.5.

- You spend less time at low levels, but you can easily accommodate that in design.
- There is no need to accommodate changes for milestones and story awards. They are irrelevant to whether a super-dungeon would work. Just plan for the XP provided by monsters.
- There is no reason inspiration could not be used as normal.
- Resting is not that much of an issue, either - the PCs need to find safe places to rest in every edition.
- Death is less likely in 5E, but that is not something that is detrimental to a mega dungeon.
- You can have henchmen and hirelings in 5E.
- Insta-death went away for a reason - but you can still have dungeons with deadly encounters. And quite frankly, there are more than a few monsters out there where two bad rolls gets you killed - and there are a lot of ways to deal massive damage in the game.

Is the feel identical to old school dungeons? No. However, the changes were intentional improvements designed to create a better play experience. They work in a mega dungeon setting just like they work elsewhere. If you really want to capture the exact feel of a AD&D or 2E megadungeon, the best thing to do is play those editions.

 

[Agamon]

I agree, megadungeons aren't just an old school adventure type. In fact, a lot of the largest ones come from the 3.x era (Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil, Rappan Athuk, The World's Largest Dungeon, Castle Whiterock).

I'd just run it how I normally run 5e. It should work fine.

 

[JmanTheDM]

Thanks for the reply.

so, change the dungeon design to accommodate faster level advancement for the first few levels - how would you change that? smaller "levels" How much smaller? 1/3? 1/4? 1/10th? Also, there was a ratio of dungeon stocking, with built in assumptions for XP gained for treasure? do you now stock a dungeon with more monsters to accommodate that.

Inspiration is "earned" quite often by the use of flaws etc. These tend to have a more role-play story element to them, which tend to not exist in quite the abundance within a dungeon setting (especially if you need to focus more on stocking baddies to earn your XP - see above). So, how would you add story driven elements that would give your PC's frequent chances to add Inspiration in non-combat situations?

resting is not much of an issue, but healing is. if you sit in a barred closet for an hour - many of your PC's can get spells back, much HP back - which changes the entire way dungeon stocking takes place. when building an encounter, do you now assume that the PC's will be fully healed? if you have chained encounters and "short rests" can happen, do you automatically assume that short rests take place and up the difficulty? how do you build HP attrition based levels when HP is so easily healed? Old school, it could take days out of the dungeon to fully heal and come back. now it takes 24 hours. old days, alliances could be formed and defenses put in place to try and thwart the delvers, now, 24 hours is not much time.. what tactics does one use to adjust for this?

good comments, thanks!

I recognize that cracking open RA designed for S&W would not work as-is if I were to run a group of 5ed players through it, however, it is also not simply a matter of transposing the 5th edition monsters into the adventure and everything is good.

what else needs to be thought about to make RA a playable, but VERY deadly dungeon using 5th.

Cheers,

J

 

[Quickleaf]

- Fast level advancement at low levels vs. old school, slow level advancement and VERY HIGH 1st level mortality

I've heard some nightmare stories from groups playing 5e where 1st-level parties have been wiped. Seriously, compare the damage a hobgoblin or ogre can do versus a 1st-level or 2nd level PC's hit points, and it's easy to see how low-level 5e could be run as dungeon survival horror.

As for fast advancement at low-levels, if you want to change it you can change it. If you want to work with it, you just design the first level(s) of the dungeon as a smaller than the deeper levels. It takes about 1 session to get to 2nd level, and 2 sessions to get to 3rd level, Voilá!

- XP for treasure, vs. milestone and "story" awards based XP. how would encounter design have to change to incorporate milestones and story awards?

Designing a mega-dungeon story awards is no different from designing story awards for another scenario. Present rewards for "opening the Obsidian gate leading to the 2nd level", "defeating the necromancer Bal'gorzim", "discovering the fate of the elven magisters who built Tiarn Liath", "getting the blue dragon's treasure", "resolving the dispute between quaggoth and svirfneblin", "assembling the 4 pieces of Vadriel's Sword", etc, etc.

- emphasis on "role playing" to earn Inspiration vs. no real way to do that in past editions.

Not sure what your point is here, but if you do not want the "Inspiration for role-playing" mechanic in your game, then cut it out. I've heard of groups giving all PCs Inspiration at the start of a session, and then being done with it.

As an alternative, since Inspiration can be given for role-playing Flaws, you might apply a similar logic to dungeon exploration: Whenever a PC takes a risk they probably shouldn't (e.g. sticking their hand in an ominous green mouth, jumping down into a dark chasm), they gain Inspiration. Could make for a bit more gonzo game than you're looking for, but could be fun.

- short and long rests vs. attrition warfare and strategic thinking of "do we enter into 1 more door?" how does a dungeon layout change based on this?

Strategic thinking is alive and well in 5e, particularly when it comes to adventuring within the same day. Long rests are powerful in 5e compared to past editions, so finding a secure campsite/sanctuary where a long rest won't be disturbed by monsters should be a significant goal in a 5e mega-dungeon. Come to think of it, this has always been true in D&D regardless of edition.

- Easy Player death vs 5th edition where player death is relatively hard (when compared to earlier - pre-4th - editions)

There are plenty of dials you can change to make 5e deadlier if you want, many of which are discussed in the DMG. Not the least of which is to design your encounters deadlier, and play your monsters nastier.

- modern play de-emphasizes Hirelings and torchbearers vs. a ready supply to provide cannon fodder and a HP buffer

Take a look at the recent Rage of Demon's Adventurer's Guide PDF on the WotC website. Several of the factions have downtime activities where you can muster NPC hirelings - like a handful of bandits or guards, or a single veteran. That can be a good guideline for replicating hireling-oriented play of older editions.

- Insta-death traps and deadly encounters (contact poison, save or die) has pretty much gone away.

While I can't think of many player who would welcome save-or-die back into the game, you can simulate these sorts of things easily enough. Set your trap damage to the Deadly values recommended in the DMG. Use lots of traps and tricks, especially in non-traditional or surprising ways. Put contact explosives suspended in your gelatinous cubes that detonate when the cube turns to mush. Design like a rat bastard DM. Also have a look thru the DMG poisons - there are some nasty poisons there; sure they probably won't kill a PC outright but they could severely wound or knock one unconscious.

 

[jgsugden]

[PF][/PF]It comes down to design.

You can build in natural resting points - if the PCs clear a level and the next level is down a 500 foot climb, it is a pretty natural resting spot.

Inspiration can be earned by playing up to your background elements, but it can be earned for anything the DM wants to reward. Or, it can be left out entirely. 5E works perfectly well without it - my current DM has forgotten to give it over the first 8 sessions in his campaign... And there is no reason that the role playing elements of the backgrounds can't be fun to use in a crawl.

If you're particularly worried about advancement rates: Eliminate them. Design a mega dungeon with 20 levels. Every time they move down a level, they advance another character level. It isn't a really 'role playing' focused solution, but it works for a plotless crawl.

 

[Tony Vargas]

is it even possible? no, seriously!

Yes, in any edition, it's just up to the DM to evoke the right feel.

of course playing an adventure of walking through a dungeon is of course possible, but running a meg-dungeon (old school style) as it's own self-contained entity. What would need to change in how a dungeon is presented to make it possible? some of the things that I can think of off the top of my head.

- Fast level advancement at low levels vs. old school, slow level advancement and VERY HIGH 1st level mortality

Simply don't design tailored-to-1st-level encounters, at all. You'll get high PC mortality until enough PCs have made it out of Apprentice tier to carry the rest of the party.

- XP for treasure, vs. milestone and "story" awards based XP. how would encounter design have to change to incorporate milestones and story awards?

Make the story milestone "found the treasure!"

- emphasis on "role playing" to earn Inspiration vs. no real way to do that in past editions.

You can, and could always, RP as much or as little as you liked. Inspiration (not Bardic Inspiration) is, indeed, at odds with the rest of 5e, being a more touchie-feelie-indie mechanic, so you can just not use it.

- short and long rests vs. attrition warfare and strategic thinking of "do we enter into 1 more door?" how does a dungeon layout change based on this?

Not seeing the problem. Even an hour-long rest is probably impractical with wondering monster checks every old-school-10min-turn.

resting is not much of an issue, but healing is. if you sit in a barred closet for an hour - many of your PC's can get spells back, much HP back - which changes the entire way dungeon stocking takes place.

That's OK as a hypothetical, but practically speaking, if the mega-dungeon is the traditional wandering-monster interstate, there's an excellent chance something's going to screw with the party, and 'resting' is going to be done outside the dungeon, if not all the way back in the nearest comparatively 'safe' inn or town.

Heck, a wandering purple worm might just eat their little closet whole.

when building an encounter, do you now assume that the PC's will be fully healed? if you have chained encounters and "short rests" can happen, do you automatically assume that short rests take place and up the difficulty? how do you build HP attrition based levels when HP is so easily healed?

HP attrition is still a real thing, it's just not all the hps are on the table until you've burned through the party's HD - assuming they can even successfully access them. A mega-dungeon is way more than a party can tackle in a 'day,' anyway, so if more hps and the occasional 'short' rest let them tackle a few more encounters a day, and they finish the dungeon in three fortnights instead of two months, does it really matter?

Old school, it could take days out of the dungeon to fully heal and come back. now it takes 24 hours. old days, alliances could be formed and defenses put in place to try and thwart the delvers, now, 24 hours is not much time.. what tactics does one use to adjust for this?

24 hrs is no small amount of time, and it's two long rests to /fully/ restore, including getting back all your HD, if that's important (it may not be if 'short' hour-long union lunchbreaks are unavailable in the mega-dungeon). There's also the little question of how far it is from the dungeon to a safe resting place, and what random encounters are like out there...

- Easy Player death vs 5th edition where player death is relatively hard (when compared to earlier - pre-4th - editions)
- modern play de-emphasizes Hirelings and torchbearers vs. a ready supply to provide cannon fodder and a HP buffer

These kinda take care of eachother. You don't /need/ so much cannon fodder because PCs have a little more durability.

Still, while 5e may de-emphasize henchmen & hirelings, it's mechanics make having more warm bodies on your side a good thing, since Bounded Accuracy means they generally have some chance to contribute whenever combat or checks are called for.

- Insta-death traps and deadly encounters (contact poison, save or die) has pretty much gone away.

Not entirely, and there's no reason you can't create them. The save mechanic is there, when you design, say, a trap that forces a save, assign the consequence you want to a failed save. If you want it to be 'death,' it is.

I wanted to create a "mega-dungeon", that "felt" like RA or ToEE but utilized 5th RAW as the base system, how would one go about doing that?

First, get used to the idea that '5th RAW' is an oxymoron. As the DM, 5e's rules are yours to play with, not play by. Even if you have no formal 'house rules,' 5e leaves you plenty of latitude to make rulings on the fly, including rulings notwithstanding the letter of the rules.

 

[Agamon]

Ah, in my original post, I only had time to answer the question asked by the thread header. Now that I see you're trying to go for an old school feel, maybe I can help out.

so, change the dungeon design to accommodate faster level advancement for the first few levels - how would you change that? smaller "levels" How much smaller? 1/3? 1/4? 1/10th? Also, there was a ratio of dungeon stocking, with built in assumptions for XP gained for treasure? do you now stock a dungeon with more monsters to accommodate that.

Honestly? If it's old school feel you're going for, I wouldn't worry about such minutia. If dungeon level balance is what you're shooting for, though, just use the encounter recommendations from the DMG and restock the dungeon with the same types of monsters, rather that replace straight-across.

Inspiration is "earned" quite often by the use of flaws etc. These tend to have a more role-play story element to them, which tend to not exist in quite the abundance within a dungeon setting (especially if you need to focus more on stocking baddies to earn your XP - see above). So, how would you add story driven elements that would give your PC's frequent chances to add Inspiration in non-combat situations?

If the game is more of a Diablo-style bash-kill-loot, you can always give inspiration for describing cool moves during combat, being smart during exploration, and, of course, give it out when there happens to be roleplaying.

resting is not much of an issue, but healing is. if you sit in a barred closet for an hour - many of your PC's can get spells back, much HP back - which changes the entire way dungeon stocking takes place. when building an encounter, do you now assume that the PC's will be fully healed? if you have chained encounters and "short rests" can happen, do you automatically assume that short rests take place and up the difficulty? how do you build HP attrition based levels when HP is so easily healed? Old school, it could take days out of the dungeon to fully heal and come back. now it takes 24 hours. old days, alliances could be formed and defenses put in place to try and thwart the delvers, now, 24 hours is not much time.. what tactics does one use to adjust for this?

If you want it more OS, change a short rest to overnight sleep and a long rest to a week long.

I recognize that cracking open RA designed for S&W would not work as-is if I were to run a group of 5ed players through it, however, it is also not simply a matter of transposing the 5th edition monsters into the adventure and everything is good.

what else needs to be thought about to make RA a playable, but VERY deadly dungeon using 5th.

As I said above, it's a bit of work, but I'd change the encounters to what the DMG recommends, and then make it all hard to deadly, if that's what you want.

I don't think just replacing what's in RA, for example, with 5e monsters would make the game unplayable, it should work fine. I've run 5e with a 1e Dungeon adventure, a 3e Dungeon adventure, and a 5e playtest adventure. And while changing things up in published material is automatic for me, I just do it to make it fit my campaign, not for balance purposes. All three worked fine as is, without recalculating the encounter math.

 

[Inchoroi]

5e can handle it pretty well. You'd need to come up with a good reason for the mega-dungeon, though; I harp on this a lot, I think, but 5e focuses a lot more on the story, so you'd need to build that into the dungeon.

I would suggest playing Dark Souls, Dark Souls 2, and Demon Souls for a good idea on what I mean. It is, essentially, an enormous mega-dungeon, with a beautiful and dark story (of course, I don't suggest taking it whole-sale, because the death thing that the series has doesn't work well with table top groups, since it's meant for single player).

 

[Sacrosanct]

is it even possible? no, seriously!

Yes, it's entirely possible, and I've done it with my Felk Mor megadungeon (that hyperlink has lots of images of how it was designed. But I'll try to answer your other questions as well:

- Fast level advancement at low levels vs. old school, slow level advancement and VERY HIGH 1st level mortality

Slow advancement with old school is a myth. Old school was XP for treasure and role-playing ideas, so I suppose you could do really slow advancement if you were low on treasure. PCs would easily be level 3 or even 4 after module T1, and were near level 10 at the end of T4. The difference is that in AD&D, level 10 was considered pretty high level as you had reached name level by then, and the vast majority of actual game play was done at level 4-10. 5e just pushes that curve up a bit to the low teens, but I've noticed that level advancement is pretty close to it was in AD&D.

- XP for treasure, vs. milestone and "story" awards based XP. how would encounter design have to change to incorporate milestones and story awards?

I do encounter design the same in 5e as I do in AD&D. I.e., I don't pay that much attention to the RAW at all in either. I do what feels right in partnership with what makes sense in the context of that encounter area. 5e doesn't have XP for treasure, but the XP for the encounters is much higher, so they balance out. Remember: defeating the encounter to get the monster XP award does not mean killing the monster. You get the XP for bypassing it, killing it, or any other way you "beat" it. Also, I still give out XP awards for things like figuring out riddles, beating traps, etc much the same way as I do in AD&D

- emphasis on "role playing" to earn Inspiration vs. no real way to do that in past editions.

I don't use inspiration in 5e either. My players role-play as it's own reward. They don't do it to get inspiration points.

- short and long rests vs. attrition warfare and strategic thinking of "do we enter into 1 more door?" how does a dungeon layout change based on this?

It doesn't. Players always must make the decision of risk vs reward when deciding to continue on or heading back out to their base camp. Nothing's changed. The game world (dungeon in this case) is not designed around a metagame factor like short or long rests. It's designed as to what makes sense for that area and it's inhabitants. PCs might not have an opportunity to get a long rest after X amount of encounters. That depends on what they are doing and where they are at, and what else is around them.

- Easy Player death vs 5th edition where player death is relatively hard (when compared to earlier - pre-4th - editions)

Just less options to raise dead. AD&D adventures were full of things like resurrection scrolls and wands. Take those out of 5e and it's pretty even.

- modern play de-emphasizes Hirelings and torchbearers vs. a ready supply to provide cannon fodder and a HP buffer

These can still exist in 5e, but players aren't as dependent on them. Besides, careful parties in AD&D don't need them either. I've been playing AD&D continuous since 1981, and I've only used henchmen a small % of time.

- Insta-death traps and deadly encounters (contact poison, save or die) has pretty much gone away.

The only thing this means is that you don't have to roll up as many PCs Also, I've noticed that players aren't as careful as they were in AD&D, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. In 5e, you're not spending 20 minutes of real time explaining how you're checking things in minute detail to avoid setting off a trap. You're spending more time on other things, speeding the game up. If you want 5e to emulate those save or die, just bump up the damage.