Can You Empower Claws of the Beast?

[Nail]

Would you have a problem with Maximized Flame Blade?

A good question, and not one easily brushed off.

Flame Blade damage changes with caster level; it's not based on caster size, for example. The damage is based on the spell's power, so it can be empowered.

Still, there's no sense denying I'm skating on thin ice here. I just hope the ice doesn't melt further with all of the heat.

 

[Nail]

But just within PHB II, this is not pertinent to the discussion (yet).

Luminous Assassin, and Greater and Lesser versions. (p 117, PH 2)

A "monster" only defined within the spell text, and has damage listed.

 

[KarinsDad]

A good question, and not one easily brushed off.

Flame Blade damage changes with caster level; it's not based on caster size, for example. The damage is based on the spell's power, so it can be empowered.

Still, there's no sense denying I'm skating on thin ice here. I just hope the ice doesn't melt further with all of the heat.

The only way to increase powers is to augment them. They do not have a "+x per manifester level" increase except for range and duration like spells have a "+x per caster level".

 

[KarinsDad]

Luminous Assassin, and Luminous Assassin, Greater. (p 117, PH 2)

A "monster" only defined within the spell text, and has damage listed.

True. I saw those. But, we were discussing Polymorph Subschool spells.

According to variable numeric effects, you could empower those (RAW only, not by most DMs).

 

[Nail]

Hmmmmm.....

If we changed Claws of the Beast to be a arcane spell, and then folded the augmentation into the spell as a increase per caster level......

...I still think I'd have trouble allowing it to be empowered. Most of that reluctance is based on the description of the "spell": the phrase "You gain two natural attacks with your claws" implies a stock weapon is created (claws), and weapons should do a range of damages, based on how it hits, i.e. a damage roll.

 

[Nail]

....is there a feat that allows someone to maximize their weapon damage rolls? A spell?

 

[Nail]

According to variable numeric effects, you could empower those...

I think we can fall back on part of Hyp's "rule of thumb": If the spell is just reminding us of a rule elsewhere (the rule on how much damage a masterwork medium-sized shortsword does), then that variable effect isn't really part of the spell, and so can't be empowered (or maximized, etc).

 

[Infiniti2000]

Yes, a summoned monster is an effect of a summon monster spell. But it's not a "variable, numeric" effect (though the number of monsters you summon is), and thus cannot be empowered.

The hit points, damage dealt, and attack rolls by a summoned monster surely would be considered variable and numeric, yes? Is the monster able to function inside an AMF, say? Why is the monster's damage dealth not an effect of the spell and the claws are? Exactly what text in Empower Spell leads you to your conclusion?

 

[Infiniti2000]

Right - and I've never pretended otherwise I think it's necessary to draw a line somewhere (to avoid the summoned monsters with max hit points and damage rolls issue), and I've an aversion to 'lines' based on 'common sense', because if there's one thing that's consistent about common sense, it's that everyone draws the line in a different place!

I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that a line has to be draw someplace. I don't like your rule of thumb, however, because it leads to some, for lack of a better word, unnatural scenarios.

Targeted Dispel Magic as in the duration? I don't have a problem with that.

Well, that, too. But the targeted dispel check is given in the description. It lists 1d20, so by your rule of thumb, it could be empowered or maximized.

Reincarnate I don't consider to be a numeric effect. There is no number that varies as an effect of the spell; you always come back in one form. The form varies, but that's not a numeric variable.

Now, you're not being consistent. The d% is undeniably numeric and it's variable. If it weren't variable, then why is a roll even made? I can't even begin to understand how you could say that it's neither numeric nor variable.

Claw of the Beast I don't consider to be a problem.

That, at least, we agree with. Claws of the Beast is clearly just a starting point for the discussion. It certainly will not break the game or lead to any trouble by allowing it to be either empowered or maximized.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Well, that, too. But the targeted dispel check is given in the description. It lists 1d20, so by your rule of thumb, it could be empowered or maximized.

No it couldn't... and I'll let you reread PHB p93 and p97 to see why.

Now, you're not being consistent. The d% is undeniably numeric and it's variable. If it weren't variable, then why is a roll even made? I can't even begin to understand how you could say that it's neither numeric nor variable.

The effect is variable. A d% roll is used to determine the effect, but the effect is not numeric.

"32 points of damage" is a numeric effect. "17 temporary hit points" is a numeric effect. "6 rounds" is a numeric effect. "3 celestial badgers" is a numeric effect. "Bugbear" is not a numeric effect.

Neither, for that matter, is the result of a Confusion or Contact Other Plane spell. A percentile roll determines the effect, but that effect is not measurable as a number.

An Maximized Teleport spell would not automatically result in a Mishap; the distinction between On Target, Off Target, Similar Area, or Mishap is not a numeric effect. However, an off-target result would be exactly 100% of the distance off target, and a Mishap would automatically impose 10 points of damage. The mishap reroll, however, despite producing a variable effect, does not produce a numeric effect, and the 1d20+80 is therefore not maximized.

(Prismatic Spray, now, is an interesting one. The colour of the beam that strikes an opponent is not a numeric effect. But the table also determines whether one or two beams strike, and that is a numeric effect. So I would say that a roll of 4, say, with an Empowered Prismatic Spray would not have us consulting the result for a 6; rather, the Con damage of the green beam would be Empowered. A roll of 8, however, would result in three beams (2 x 1.5) striking the target. (Any of the other rolls would result in 1 x 1.5, rounded down to 1.) Similarly, a Maximized Prismatic Spray would result in 2 beams striking, but they would not automatically both be Violet.)

(This also shows the extreme wisdom in limiting the spell to a single '8' result. A spell with an open-ended damage capacity - say, for example, 1d6 damage, with any roll of 6 resulting in an extra d6 being added - has a variable numeric effect with an infinite maximum result, so a Maximized version would deal an infinite amount of damage. If the roll of 8 could keep adding rays to Prismatic Spray indefinitely, a Maximized version would cause each target to be struck by an infinite number of rays...)

-Hyp.